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Thread: Why are the models always ladies?

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsbn
    Now if u'd like to know the relevance of model shoots, I'd like to invite u on an open-minded trip. Now sit down, meditate and ask urself, how many times do u have to take pictures of human beings?
    please don't misunderstand me! i'm not inviting flames, being cynical or questioning the actual purpose of having such shoots. they exists for a reason, either for hobby, economic or learning purposes. afterall, singapore is not the only country around that have such things. i'm sure you have seen in foreign photographic magazines, ads for 'glamour models'. i'm asking for contributions from shooters who have learnt, gained and experienced from the shoots, so as to convince 'sceptics' that such shoots are not purely candyfloss for people with spare cash n time.

    cheers!

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang
    I reckon this thread will be closed in due time but let me put things into perspective. The worst it can get is we can agree to disagree...

    Now, the truth does hurt. I'm very sure each and every single one of us here would like to think that our works and shots are better, different, more creative than "the others" and of course, it would make sense to feel offended to think that someone else would dare to comment and lump everyone into one broad category.

    Lets face it. It may be a broad sweeping statement but there is an element of truth to it. Just look at the comments.

    "nose bleed"

    "lau nua" (drool)

    "chio"

    I think you get the idea.

    There is alot of snap shots of women in bikinis, in dresses in outfits that neither flatter nor makes sense. Yes, i guess one would need to learn and share and they do have to start from some where but hey, what happened to shooting friends or children to start with?

    Oh yes. The perenial favourite. During the shoot of a beautiful girl, one would need to think abt angles, compositions etc etc but wouldn't that be the case for any other subject? Your intentions may not be to be one of the "sad fags" but it might appear like one.

    Lets propose an experiment. Have 2 models and organise an outdoor shoot. One is lingerie shoot while the other is clothed in a loose formless skirt and a long woolly turtle neck.

    No prizes for who's shooting slots gets reserved faster.

    Now, don't get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with the appreciation of a female form but i would think it's much better to be honest abt it than try to convince yourself and everyone else that you have noble and academic intentions in "learning" how to take pictures of a beautiful subject.

    Here's a scenario for you. Group shot. Multiple photographers. Many voices calling out to catch the attention of the model. Static background. Every once in awhile, subject moves and the whole bunch of lenses follow. Repeat process. Do we honestly see anything that makes you go "wow" when you at at the pictures at the end of the shoot?
    Well said!

    Lately I've seen the deluge of model shots in all guises, from race queens to organised model shoots. I tend to agree with the thread starter - how many of these photographers really go on the shoots to learn portraiture/studio shoot? Sure, there are some who do, but they are far and few between.

    Like wolfgang and a few others commented, there's always the friends/colleagues/family/relatives/etc if you really are serious and interested in portraiture.

    And the comments to the photos posted are just as what wolfgang has quoted. Most, if not all the time, comments were about how pretty/chio/sexy/etc the model is. Otherwise, it's one of those "hey, she modeled for <company> too, here's a shot from the other event" types.

    And anyway, I don't see why so many people should get so worked up if they are not "guilty" of what the thread starter said.

    Regards
    CK

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by riva
    I've noticed that all the model shoots listed are with female models only. Why are there no shoots with male models? I'm sure that if there are female members of this forum out there, they would like to have a hunk as a model from time to time.

    And all the models tend to look somewhat the same, ie very Chinese/Asian look and school girl type. How come no ethnic type models? And more mature looking ones?

    I'm wondering if these shoots are really for practise or more for the guys to oogle at a 'pretty' girl.

    Hmm... just my honest observation.
    I would suggest perhaps wearing a more macro spectacle with a broader perspective - the demographics of Clubsnappers here are predominantly, or at least majority of them are Chinese male, so naturally its pure economics - a demand and supply or an egg and chicken issue here also.

    Instead of whining, writing about unfounded and insensible statements about guys here, may I suggest you take the lead by organising one of your above preferred shoot on minority race or hunk. For hunk, you can then gauge how many lady supporters out there in support of your cause. Potentially, there could be some male supporters too for you to garner. Likewise, the same for minority or foreign race shoot.

    In short, try to do something to prove your points instead of comfortably writing statements behind a screen. Its always better not to form premature judgement or seeing things purely from a lady's angle.

    Btw, I have enjoyed the company of like-minded people and interacting with all participating in those organised shoots. Most people here, I noticed, are educated lot and highly disciplined, so even comments from some, like chio, lao nua, swee, etc., all these remarks are simply "tongue in cheek". Do not deride them. In any case, I have yet to come across any guy that simply oogle at the pretty model instead of concentrating on the output of their shot.

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by riva
    I've noticed that all the model shoots listed are with female models only. Why are there no shoots with male models? I'm sure that if there are female members of this forum out there, they would like to have a hunk as a model from time to time.

    does it mean female members of this forum wants a chance to oogles at macho man?

    This issue here is juz supply and demand......

    some shoot with heart, some juz want to shoot the pretty ladies, some juz enjoy shooting, some juz like to play with cameras, why not they go out there to enjoy photoshoot with male/female models?

    anyway, most ppl here juz loves shooting!!!

  5. #85
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    I don't think that's fair to say how many of these photographers really go on the shoots to learn portraiture/studio shoots.

    I've organised a few shoots and have observed the following so far:

    1. The pros - they're there to update their existing portfolios and improve
    2. The amateurs and newbies - they're there to learn the basics of portraiture and their gears and get some tips and tricks from the pros and experienced on how to do it well.

    Of course, we also talked about how good looking the model is, but that's definitely not the point. So far, all my participants are there to have a good time of socialising in a group, discuss on our photography gears, the amateurs and newbies asking how to take good shots, the pros sharing tips and tricks to them, and of course, chit-chat on interesting threads in CS like this one! I also have lady photographers joining the shoot. You mean they're there to 'oogle' at the lady models? Definitely not!

    I can't deny that guys tend to oogle at beautiful girls. I mean every guy does that, and I personally don't think there's any problem with that. However, the main thing for organising or participating in such shoots is not to look at girls, but for the sake of networking and have fun discussing on photography topics.

    We get so worked up because it's a sweeping statement!

    Quote Originally Posted by ckiang
    Well said!

    Lately I've seen the deluge of model shots in all guises, from race queens to organised model shoots. I tend to agree with the thread starter - how many of these photographers really go on the shoots to learn portraiture/studio shoot? Sure, there are some who do, but they are far and few between.

    Like wolfgang and a few others commented, there's always the friends/colleagues/family/relatives/etc if you really are serious and interested in portraiture.

    And the comments to the photos posted are just as what wolfgang has quoted. Most, if not all the time, comments were about how pretty/chio/sexy/etc the model is. Otherwise, it's one of those "hey, she modeled for <company> too, here's a shot from the other event" types.

    And anyway, I don't see why so many people should get so worked up if they are not "guilty" of what the thread starter said.

    Regards
    CK
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    My Picture Website

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by ckiang
    I tend to agree with the thread starter - how many of these photographers really go on the shoots to learn portraiture/studio shoot? Sure, there are some who do, but they are far and few between.

    And anyway, I don't see why so many people should get so worked up if they are not "guilty" of what the thread starter said.
    Hi CK,

    No need to work ah...

    Actually there is another grp of us shooting fashion shows. Yeah, like you said, no need to get worked up lar. I go there to shoot the shows for basically training and maintaining my targeting skills (the other being bird shooting) for tele, and also to improve my technical competence with handling the camera. Shooting nice looking ladies is an added bonus lor. I also shoot the guys (though not as much) and also children should they appear. Like in bird shooting, no one is born with the skills, you just practise. I find that this somewhat helps me in my event shoots whereby you are trained to aim, lock AF on a good spot and shoot very fast to get the moment.

    So far, all the comments are healthy in the fashion show threads i have seen. Like colour of skin tone, good tight framing, good capture of a moment, how much fill, equipment talk like flash frames, bokeh etc..... So far I have printed more than 300 4R pics and about 40 S8R (i print at KT, real real cheap ).

    Well anyway, my wife sometimes tags along with me lar, so there's nothing to it lor. If i look at male models and shoots them, geez.....something wrong. I think this is pretty natural.

  7. #87
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    not sure how many will agree with me, but the problem lies in that not enough constructive critiques or educational direction are given. it appears even though the posters are honestly seeking and soliciting for comments, it ends up being a showcase of pretty young faces. it often appears they are just banal shots of pretty girls smiling statically into the camera, often with a meaningless or bland background with zero context...hence, drawing a 'no-comments' response from most viewers.

    how to solve?

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stereobox
    not sure how many will agree with me, but the problem lies in that not enough constructive critiques or educational direction are given. it appears even though the posters are honestly seeking and soliciting for comments, it ends up being a showcase of pretty young faces. it often appears they are just banal shots of pretty girls smiling statically into the camera, often with a meaningless or bland background with zero context...hence, drawing a 'no-comments' response from most viewers.

    how to solve?
    improve the way to shoot human lor, thats the only way..........

  9. #89
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    Good points by wolfgang...

    Some other points to fuel this thread... sometimes a photog shoots for "good" shots which will get good comments from other photogs but this does not necessarily mean it will appeal to the client or audience.

    So if a picture does invoke such terms as "chio" (pretty) or "lau nuah" (salivating goodness)... maybe its the photogs intention to portray the subject in such light. ANd maybe some clients (models or agent) are looking for these kinda shots with zero artistic value but lots of mass market appeal. Is that right or wrong?? Its just 2 sides of a coin. One will sell as art and another will sell as advertisement. One will get thumbs up from fellow photogs and one will get labled as cheesy by photogs.... just remember the fact that what looks great to you as photog may have no appeal to the client... and the client is the one that pays you... As an example, are Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition photos cheesy or artistic? Or closer to home... FHM... So know who you are shooting for. Cheers!

  10. #90

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    Never been to a model shoot before, but have been to live-figure painting sessions.
    I believe different models bring out diff perspectives to your work and if u wish to add to your portfolio for commercial purposes, pretty young things(PYT) are a must for u to work on. And even amongst those PYT, there are different catagories of 'look' that u would have to bring out in order to successfully capture a true portraiture of ur model.
    and if paying for e model is ur only way of getting the experience, by all means pay for it.

    if u wanna take hunks or mature ladies. then get 1 even if u have to pay for it.organise shoots if u wan. im sure there will be pple interested.

  11. #91
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    Sharing this link to illustrate the point....
    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/141916

    You'd need an account there to view it... but basically just swap the fact that its a office to a model and you will know what I mean... its a long thread... the photogs all loved his work... technically and aesthetically good but....

    I was totally blown over in the end... hahaa.... But this guy is really a dedicated photographer. How many are willing to go that extra mile.

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by blurblock
    I am not saying riva's observation are not valid, but for pollock and riva to make a sweeping statement out of the photographers is rather rude.

    Anyway, I seldom, if not never (at least I can't remember doing so) join shoots organised by CS until today. I find it rather weird to take other people's pose.
    I reread Riva's posts again

    There are at least two things raised

    1 That there most shoots are with young pretty models. I think this is not challenged. As in my earlier post, what it means is that we should (maybe!) ask ourselves why we are photographing these models. That is all

    2 She then made several comments. Some of these are, and I am in agreement with you, probably should be put more "diplomatically". She is free to think that the pictures posted are superficial. And here I think you are justified to ask her what she meant by "superficial" by asking to see her works.

    But on my part, I do not ask to look at others' work although I may be criticised by them. You are right that if my friend ( a well known "portrait photographer ) criticised my work, I will pay more attention to his critiques. But a criticism (I think there is a difference between a criticism and critique) from even a novice will at least make me think a little. This came about from my previous profession as a teacher when I realised that even my "students" who knew A LOT less than me can also raised points that I did not notice.

  13. #93
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    student, if you reread the posts again, you will notice that Riva use these words "always", "all", "only". I do not know whether this is intentional or simply bad choice of words.

  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Astin
    student, if you reread the posts again, you will notice that Riva use these words "always", "all", "only". I do not know whether this is intentional or simply bad choice of words.
    That is why I think the post could have been put more diplomatically. I personally do not think Riva's intention is to inflame. An unfortunate choice of words.

  15. #95

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    [QUOTE=pollock]just my two cents...

    most of the people that go for the "photo shoots" are just fags who dont have the guts to go meet girls and just want to relish the time spent with one beautiful "model"......

    pls dont think im discounting everyone here that posts pics.....a couple of u guys are really good......artistic and tasteful..........

    i feel so sorry for the guys who take up photography just to take pretty girl shots........ur no different from a male gyne who cant afford an internet connection to surf porn...and there are those who arrange photo shoots just to earn a quick buck ....just coz he knows a girl that looks good.........





    Sounds like 300N and gang(always organise such shoots)...their models look to me like wild hussies in short short skirts, long long legs and their hair up in all four directions-WILD...the photogs whom join them must be desprate for women.Then, there are ppl whom I encountered at a PSS indoor studio shoot. One wild bunch of photogs stared at me and asked me to replace the model when she changed her dress by removing my coat for them!Xiao!!!These such ppl are downright shameful if they can ask any female to be their model just for one reason-OOGLE

  16. #96

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    To me, perspectives coming from people such as Riva or Pollock are just a tip of the iceberg. They felt sidelined, vis a vis the motivation and interest of the majority of the male population participating in existing outdoor or indoor portraiture shoots, hence, those critical comments directed on guy photographic hobby here in this forum group.

    We are no god or moral judge, so at the end of the day its very much to each his own, we should not go around deriding others interest and hobby.

    Basically, its market forces at play here too, everyone pays a fee to shoot to bulit upon portfolio or to improve on skill, etc., so if the girls feel strongly they want something different, they should go take the lead and get it organise.

    For me, its live and let live. Henceforth, I am leaving such lady forummers alone, and watching tehm from the sideline to see what concrete action they come out of it after all their words .

  17. #97

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    Then, there are ppl whom I encountered at a PSS indoor studio shoot. One wild bunch of photogs stared at me and asked me to replace the model when she changed her dress by removing my coat for them!Xiao!!!



    after reading, i still cant understand what are you trying to say.....i think maybe my english no good

  18. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by copperbird
    Then, there are ppl whom I encountered at a PSS indoor studio shoot. One wild bunch of photogs stared at me and asked me to replace the model when she changed her dress by removing my coat for them!Xiao!!!



    after reading, i still cant understand what are you trying to say.....i think maybe my english no good
    In short, they want a young prince(me) to model for their cameras, nude

  19. #99

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    i think i got it!

    forgot to see your name, jodie.........

  20. #100

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    to all those whom i have truly offended.......im sorry.....

    those were harsh words...but there is much truth to those sweeping statements.......that im sure most of u will agree with me...........and i realise what i said might have been a little too broad....

    just that when i was reading up on taking portrait shots......all i see as constructive comments are ....." chio" and "can i see more of her legs"....

    and when a model shoot is arranged.....once people look at her ...if shes pretty ...there is a rush to join in.....doesnt that show where their true intents lie?.....like i know there was a case where the model couldnt make it .,...and immediately a few didnt want to go .....whats up with that?.....

    when they do attend a photosession....after expending more than 200 shots....they post pics of the model spreading and smiling ....thats all ?....i thought its supp to be a learning experience....what happened to all the failed shots?.....isnt that where we truly learn?

    My message is to those people…….if ur not guilty of such a thing what I say shouldn’t really bother yu coz im sure u notice the trend too….

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