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Thread: The Magic Word is "Wedding"

  1. #1

    Default The Magic Word is "Wedding"

    The targeted preys: Newbies, Wannabes, Start outs.

    The Magic words to use: Wedding, Pre-Wedding, Overseas, Portfolio Building, Exposure, Referrals, On A Budget, "Bad Experience from Professionals", "Kindness of your heart"

    Almost like a formula, you just find a newbie and just trying forming a sentence with a few of the above suggested keywords. Works every time right? That said, isn't those words are the very red flags to watch out for?

    I just read a rant thread on another forum about this Craiglist post:

    http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/evg/2892691962.html

    __________________________________________________ _
    I am getting married on June 9th in Quincy, MA. I am looking for someone just starting out in the florist business. In exchange for 2 bouquets and fresh cut flowers for my centerpieces ( at little or no cost to me) I can have my photographer provide professional photos of the event/flowers. I will write reviews of your service on all of the major wedding blogs/websites and facebook. I can also serve as a great reference for your future brides.

    Please contact me if interested.

    Thanks!
    Nicole
    _____________________________________________

    The world of cheapskates knows no bounds; first they aimed at photographers and videographers, now even florists are targeted and yet they are making use of the photographer to do that low act. Very soon, they will start to find startup bridal studios, the catering and food, and the venue, restaurants and hotels if they can, they will. This phenomenal is spreading like a disease. The whole wedding industry needs to protect itself, or else there won't be a sustainable market left.

    I know some smart S is going to post that lame 'supply and demand' or 'free market' reply here. I think Hart and Jason addressed that a few times in several other posts. While we cannot stop or eradicate such happenings, doesn't mean we should allow it to crawl all over us. The only necessary thing for evil to triumph is for good men to say nothing. While saying such behavior is evil is too far fetched, but the principle is the same, this is our market, we don't at least say or do something, very soon there is no market left.
    Last edited by sjackal; 11th March 2012 at 12:00 PM.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member oracle0711's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Magic Word is "Wedding"

    Soon, this individual will be bragging her trade with the words "cheapest wedding planner in your neighborhood".

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Magic Word is "Wedding"

    Next time wedding everything free lah. Collect hongbao money only. Still can make profit like that.

  4. #4
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Magic Word is "Wedding"

    Some members tell me they are very sick of seeing freeloaders come here to take advantage on photographers, asking me is there a way to stop this?

    I relied: "we can try our best, but can't stop the flies from coming when there are rotten apples here."



    Some members tell me we should have a free service wanted and offered section here,

    I relied: "sorry, we can't do that, that will drive away customers and photographers"
    in my mind I say "You siao har? what is the point you have tones of portfolio and there is no paying customers want you services?"






    You see, how people see things so differently, not possible to please very one.
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  5. #5
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    Default

    I remember someone on CS quoted something like "how about I handle the catering of food for your wedding dinner? I have never cooked before and would gladly do it for experience"

  6. #6
    Member Ylesiya's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Magic Word is "Wedding"

    I'm interested how one could protect the market actually. Sure, it is damn spoiled but when coming to real actions then what's possible to do? Again you have to use these magic words "free market". Recently I've seen an offer of 8-10 hours of wedding photography for 200-250 SGD with output of 800-1000 images (including basic editing!). To say it's a slavery is to say nothing. But I bet there are plenty people here who would happily agree to these conditions with respective quality of output while I'd better leave the market for something else rather than to work for peanuts. And actually the situation is similar in many areas which are far far away from photography. My friend works in a big company which provides information research for other companies and recently he was complaining that the number of small companies offering the same service for much less money increased dramatically. The clients are lured by low prices and buy their service which is not done properly as these new companies do not know the market and have poor information and contacts database, older companies suffer, newer companies again make their prices even lower. Does it remind you something? ))
    I have a lot of e-mails coming asking about price only. I guess people just form a mailing list with a lot of cc and send to hundreds of photographers just looking for the cheapest deal right now. Very disappointing.
    Last edited by Ylesiya; 20th March 2012 at 10:58 AM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Magic Word is "Wedding"

    I know of someone who charged $1000 for a full day wedding (which is fairly cheap) when he was just starting out solo after understudying for 2 years with a mentor... During then, quite alot of customers came and ask for $200-$500 per shoot which he rejected just cos someone else on the internet is selling themselves for $200... They are really cheapskate, for $200 they have the cheek to ask for free gifts (like pre wedding video and photo etc) its scary!

    Just 2 years ago, he met a couple at their friends wedding and my friend was the photographer together with his mentor for that wedding... They liked his work and he was highly recommended by their friends (the couple who got married).... this two people call him back after one year so it was that very ONE time he settled for $800 for that one wedding photography which happen to take place during the 7th month and my friend was heading for a holiday in Aust a week after the wedding for a month so he figured that he just take the job plus it happens to be friends of one of his favourite wedding couple which they are now friends with him till today (he just did their maternity shoot)...

    That wed-to-be couple bargained hard and begged him on the account of goodwill and all that bullshit.. and for the kindness of his heart and they will be eternally grateful, they will write reviews and recommend on all the forums etc. So they settle for $800 and they left on a good note (my friend's fees was about $1600 by that time the couple approached him for the $800 shoot)... my friend was really upbeat cos he found out that his ex clients will also be present at the wedding...

    On the wedding day, the $800 couple, THEY FORGOT "the eternally grateful" and all that goodwill ****.... They treated him like a slave and order and command him, talked to him rudely just cos they are paying him $800...

    Then the groom shouted at him during the table to table shot, because he was trying to take the table to table shot (about 27 tables, he was on table 12th less than half way through).... As you all know table to table is quite systematic, and the groom screamed at him during the dinner just cos 3 of the groom's colleagues (women) wanted to have their group photos (just 3 of them who wanted to act cute and take photo) taken in the midst of the table to table event (they were from table 8 and he had been taking group photos of the 3 of them since the reception time and in between the makan times when there was nothing much to shoot... took almost 80+ photos of that 3 ugly girls...) and my friend told them nicely that he will have their picture taken after the table to table shots... (my friend is more of the mild tempered soft spoken type)... then the 3 girls went to tell the groom that the photographer refuse to take them, very poor service... the groom storm up to my friend and shouted at him... Said " THIS IS NOT A FREE SERVICE, WE ARE PAYING CUSTOMERS, IF YOU CANNOT PROVIDE GOOD SERVICE TELL ME EARLIER, I WON'T HIRE YOU... YOU SUCKS, YOU THINK YOUR PHOTOGRAPHY VERY GOOD AH? I PAY YOU VERY HIGH, EVERYONE WILL BE BEGGING FOR THIS JOB, I GIVE IT TO YOU AND YOU DUN APPRECIATE!!!! my friend tried to explain to him and he says that my friend needs to serve the guests as well, cos they are his guests.... (on a side note, the groom's father is unable to stand for long cos of knee cap problems and the bride's grandmother is also on wheelchair so my friend wanted to do the table to table quickly so that the older folks can rest)

    At the end of the night the stupid fellow dun wanna pay, say my friend service is bad... my friend told him, if i refuse to take their photos, then you can say my service is bad, I told them that i will take them after the table to table, you cannot fault me plus I take so many shots of them, so who is paying now?.... he made another scene and wanted to hit my friend, so we had to send a few guys (some like gangster) friends to go down and talk to the guy... and told him that, its fine, we wont give you the photos, dun bother calling us and dun bother to write to the forum, we will tell everyone about you and we have your photos, the whole world will know what kind of person you are.... The next day, the guy called and demand for the photos and told him that the cheque is ready, my friend totally cannot care more, just ask him to mail the cheque and he will send the edited files over...

    My other friends all had their fair share of idiotic and rude customers, alot of insults gathered as well... cos alot of customers are looking for $200-500 photographers and videographers... its very sad.... btw, the above incident is not an isolated case i believe...

    From that incident, my friend told me that, if customers are cheapo, he rather forgo the job then to take it... not only he cheapen himself but he had to take on this kind of ****... from his experience, cheapskate customers are the ones who pay little or nothing and expect alot and they shout at you like you owe them a living... now he charges about $2400+ per shoot, he says he meet lesser of all these idiotic people....

    He asked me... do i know why customers are idiotic? Cos there are many market spoilers who have spoiled the market at $200/job or FOC/job.. he also blame himself for being an idiot to spoil the market by accepting $800 and swore never again).. because cheapo thinks photographers are not like doctors or other professional, $200/day for a job is overpaying them already, $800/job every photographers will be at their knees for this job..... You guys are also photographers and professionals right? You guys know its not true... We need to protect this industry and change the mindset of people... arrrggghhh
    Last edited by meganut; 20th March 2012 at 07:03 PM. Reason: typo

  8. #8
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Magic Word is "Wedding"

    Moral of the story...

    You pay peanuts you get monkeys.
    You offer to be paid peanuts, monkeys come.

    Be firm on your principles. Be firm on deposit. If refuse to pay, walk out. If verbal abuse, walk out. Don't let people walk all over you.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The Magic Word is "Wedding"

    Here is what I think....

    There are 3 types of clients...
    1. Clients who purchase photography service because they think they have to (because their friend had it).
    2. Clients who purchase photography service because they want to, but they don't necessary think much about the images
    3. Clients who purchase photography service because they want to and they understand the importance of having the memories preserved.

    Now, what is the issue in this world is, there are a lot of people who just buy a photography service for type 1 or type 2, hence, there isn't a need to see the "quality" because price is important.

    The third type of clients generally willing to meet the photographer's demand because they are in love with the photographer's work and perhaps go extra miles to afford him/her.

    It is not their fault to want service which command lower price... if you are not comfortable with the "mentality" of these clients, there isn't a need to be there.

    If you want to charge at a level that you are comfortable with and getting clients that you want, you will need to do a lot more than getting nice images.

    I somehow find it funny that most people look at the lower market segment and start boo boo-ing at them... there isn't a need for it. Instead of spending time stating the obvious, if you think you have established, why not giving back to community and start educating upcoming photographers?

    When we first started as a greenhorn, it is easier to think $1000 a day charge is way too much... (a matter of fact, it is probably losing money).

    I generally shake my head and almost tempted to give some advice to people when I hear someone start bragging how many jobs they have each year and how they upgrade better gear and only realise they are not making any money. But of course, I shall keep my mouth shut as it is "none of my business" unless they ask.

    So, instead of spending time discussing these behaviour, why not spending more time get yourself establish and start helping others to understand the importance of costing it right?

    You can't help unless you are successfull enough, but you can't be successfull unless you have a mentality to support it.

    If you want to be at a certain level, you need to think like people in that level and have the mentality for it.

    If you think you receive an email from clients who purely asking for pricing, it is still your choice to reply or not. I tend to ignore that unless I have a couple of second for it.

    Regards,

    Hart

  10. #10

    Default Re: The Magic Word is "Wedding"

    Quote Originally Posted by Agetan View Post
    I somehow find it funny that most people look at the lower market segment and start boo boo-ing at them... there isn't a need for it. Instead of spending time stating the obvious, if you think you have established, why not giving back to community and start educating upcoming photographers?
    Hart, its really great that you have classes for newbies, spending own time and money into giving back to the community.

    But, creating awareness on this very forum is also one of the moves to educate upcoming photographers. On a side note, a class of 10 can be very enriching and specialized but single teacher dominant, whereas open forum discussions should also not be discounted as it reaches more people and hear more voices.

    IMHO it is still needed to state the obvious, because established photogs are already there, what is obvious to established photogs, may not be obvious to someone new, many donno they are not charging enough... I think most of the time the 'boo boo' is not directed at person specific, but rather directed at the bad practices, its not personal.

    Last edited by sjackal; 20th March 2012 at 07:57 PM.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: The Magic Word is "Wedding"

    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post
    Hart, its really great that you have classes for newbies, spending own time and money into giving back to the community.

    But, creating awareness on this very forum is also one of the moves to educate upcoming photographers. On a side note, a class of 10 can be very enriching and specialized but single teacher dominant, whereas open forum discussions should also not be discounted as it reaches more people and hear more voices.

    IMHO it is still needed to state the obvious, because established photogs are already there, what is obvious to established photogs, may not be obvious to someone new, many donno they are not charging enough... I think most of the time the 'boo boo' is not directed at person specific, but rather directed at the bad practices, its not personal.

    Stating the obvious here has too much negativity and personally, I don't learn anything from it.

    The reason why I do it face to face is mainly because it is personal. I will read and interpret differently but face to face give you a chance to communicate. I believe if I remember correctly, we communicate 85% of time using our body language.

    What I am hoping is, I can teach 10-15 at a time and that 10-15 will teach another 10-15 and so on...

    But of course, forum gives a better reach but at what result?

    Just my opinion that's all.

    Regards,

    Hart

  12. #12

    Default Re: The Magic Word is "Wedding"

    Quote Originally Posted by Agetan View Post
    Stating the obvious here has too much negativity and personally, I don't learn anything from it.

    The reason why I do it face to face is mainly because it is personal. I will read and interpret differently but face to face give you a chance to communicate. I believe if I remember correctly, we communicate 85% of time using our body language.

    What I am hoping is, I can teach 10-15 at a time and that 10-15 will teach another 10-15 and so on...

    But of course, forum gives a better reach but at what result?

    Just my opinion that's all.

    Regards,

    Hart
    It's not exactly negativity always, but it's another manisfication of passion. People speak up for things they feel strongly about. It's a bad situation and there are negativity inherent, but doesn't mean we should ignore it. It does create some level of awareness in this regard.

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