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Thread: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

  1. #101

    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    Quote Originally Posted by MYlover View Post
    haha, didn't get any Pm yet lol


    Hmm actually just wish to join any shooting event to gain exp.



    yeah, totally agree with it.

    Why pay for so-called "xmm" (sorry, those aren't fit to be called as a model yet), fighting with other shooters and and snap your cam away without really learning anything? Train up on your basics, practice on your friends, guy or gal.
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  2. #102
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    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    Quote Originally Posted by wakaowalao View Post
    Why pay for so-called "xmm" (sorry, those aren't fit to be called as a model yet), fighting with other shooters and and snap your cam away without really learning anything? Train up on your basics, practice on your friends, guy or gal.
    It's not very easy to get someone willing to post as model for you. Not that I agree with paying to shoot for XMM, just that it's has been tried and proven for my case. Only in the mood of camwhoring (or in events) will people ard me willing to pose for you.

    TFCD is by far the only way to get practice at little cost (there are still cost: time, transport & effort).
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  3. #103

    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowseye View Post
    It's not very easy to get someone willing to post as model for you. Not that I agree with paying to shoot for XMM, just that it's has been tried and proven for my case. Only in the mood of camwhoring (or in events) will people ard me willing to pose for you.

    TFCD is by far the only way to get practice at little cost (there are still cost: time, transport & effort).
    Events is mainly 'grip and grins', look at the camera and smile thing, if you want to learn proper human portraiture best is undivided one on one attention and time to compose and concept the shot. On posing, there are differences between posing normal people versus posing models. Posing normal people is more work but it expands your skills and its the way to go and more practical if you wanna expand your work in that direction. Good models make the work easier when they took charge of their own poses so you could just concentrate on the photography part.

    Just like in photography there's lotsa wannabes, in modelling a great lot too. For practices and testing out a concept, I don't mind XMMs just that its hard to find responsible ones with good altitude, very often TFCD calls on model mayhem leads no where.

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  4. #104

    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post
    Events is mainly 'grip and grins', look at the camera and smile thing, if you want to learn proper human portraiture best is undivided one on one attention and time to compose and concept the shot. On posing, there are differences between posing normal people versus posing models. Posing normal people is more work but it expands your skills and its the way to go and more practical if you wanna expand your work in that direction. Good models make the work easier when they took charge of their own poses so you could just concentrate on the photography part.

    Just like in photography there's lotsa wannabes, in modelling a great lot too. For practices and testing out a concept, I don't mind XMMs just that its hard to find responsible ones with good altitude, very often TFCD calls on model mayhem leads no where.
    And very often you'll see the similar disgusting hp pics profile asking for paid shoots.
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  5. #105
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wakaowalao

    And very often you'll see the similar disgusting hp pics profile asking for paid shoots.
    Lol, I totally agree with u two on comments of wannabe..
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  6. #106

    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    i can probably BITCH about 2 long pages on the models wannabe
    but forget it .. maybe i am not good enough for them to tfcd with me

  7. #107
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by soeypixels
    i can probably BITCH about 2 long pages on the models wannabe
    but forget it .. maybe i am not good enough for them to tfcd with me
    Why not? How good can they be compare to you?
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  8. #108

    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    And I must say that important qualities of models, especially those starting out, is not looks but attitude to learn and excel in a professional manner. Good looking people are plenty, just like there are tons of people with expensive cameras out there but surprisingly many photogs producing good work and earning money are using cheap cameras like D70, D80, D90.
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  9. #109

    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowseye View Post
    Why not? How good can they be compare to you?
    I really don't know what to say lah

    i am not good yet, the real good ones doesnt want to work with me
    or theres no value for the good ones to work with me

    becos i got no $$ to pay
    i will slowly find and coordinate, pre production , discuss and put everything together ..
    wait for the stars to align - usually 2 - 4 months i can put 1 shoot up

  10. #110

    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    You don't have to engage a XMM or offer free pre-wedding service to practise your photography skill. You can pick up any subject nearby, be observant and be imaginative as well. You may refer to the photos below captured by the great wedding photographer master CM Leung:

    Scored Third Place (Engagement Category) in WPPI 2012.



    Scored Second Place (Portrait Category) in WPPI 2012

    Last edited by kentwong81; 10th March 2012 at 10:46 PM.

  11. #111
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    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    Quote Originally Posted by soeypixels View Post
    I really don't know what to say lah

    i am not good yet, the real good ones doesnt want to work with me
    or theres no value for the good ones to work with me

    becos i got no $$ to pay
    i will slowly find and coordinate, pre production , discuss and put everything together ..
    wait for the stars to align - usually 2 - 4 months i can put 1 shoot up
    When what you want is fashion and not blogshop portfolio, then unless you have some special contacts it's going to be a lot harder. Network lor.

  12. #112

    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    Quote Originally Posted by kentwong81 View Post
    You don't have to engage a XMM or offer free pre-wedding service to practise your photography skill. You can pick up any subject nearby, be observant and be imaginative as well. You may refer to the photos below captured by the great wedding photographer master CM Leung:
    i guess to offer tfcd for wedding/bridal - so can make some $$ in the future
    as for tfcd / engage xmm - reasons can be alot

  13. #113

    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    Quote Originally Posted by foxtwo View Post
    When what you want is fashion and not blogshop portfolio, then unless you have some special contacts it's going to be a lot harder. Network lor.
    i am shooting towards fashion hopefully ..
    will try harder to network - which i am pretty bad at

  14. #114

    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    Hi all, i know many of you disagree with how newbies like to work for free n spoil the market. And im probably one of those deemed insensitive one because i posted on this forum for volunteers for a charity event in a club setting. But forgive me as im new here n try as i might i so did not see the post about not being able to ask for free stuff even if its for charity.

    I do disagree with the mentality and believe the newbies sometimes have to work for free but should be discerning about who to work free for. How many freelance newbies have time n chance to be paid as a photog trainee or intern? this also depends on your connections. What if u dont know anyone? Didnt u as a now experienced photog used to offer free services to your gd friends b4? What is the difference now that the definition of friends is slightly distorted? When i started out as a young dancer i too had my fair share of working for free or very lousy perks before i went semi pro.

    I certainly dont think is right for newbies to charge rates higher than what they think they will be in the future. Thats just plain ripping off the consumer. Sure the economics of demand n supply may correct the problem but imagine the law of large numbers if every photog acted this way n consumers have no choice but to accept.


    That said one must be very discerning who to work for bcoz there are a lot of vultures out there.

    Instead of simply stereotyping all free jobs as vultures, u should consider what are the merits of working free for that someone? Is it for a longer term collaboration potential? Or for greater publicity. Not everything is about exposure.

    Although the jobs maybe listed free, but sometimes all you need is to ask to be minimally covered for food n drinks or transportation or some insurance coverage for photog equipment. For non vulture like human beings - all you really need to do is to them.

    For experienced guys worrying abt newbies spoiling market. Come on do u think they are really at your level?? An experienced one will be able to cover all angles give perfect photos in almost any condition. Can a newbie do that? Obviously someone w a tight or no budget is willing to risk that and potentially get very free gd photos. As an experienced guy you should differentiate yourself from them and educate the consumers.

    Food for thought everyone.

  15. #115

    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    **typo** Obviously someone w a tight or no budget is willing to risk that and potentially get very FEW gd photos.

  16. #116

    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    Quote Originally Posted by hellothere11 View Post
    Hi all, i know many of you disagree with how newbies like to work for free n spoil the market. And im probably one of those deemed insensitive one because i posted on this forum for volunteers for a charity event in a club setting. But forgive me as im new here n try as i might i so did not see the post about not being able to ask for free stuff even if its for charity.

    I do disagree with the mentality and believe the newbies sometimes have to work for free but should be discerning about who to work free for. How many freelance newbies have time n chance to be paid as a photog trainee or intern? this also depends on your connections. What if u dont know anyone? Didnt u as a now experienced photog used to offer free services to your gd friends b4? What is the difference now that the definition of friends is slightly distorted? When i started out as a young dancer i too had my fair share of working for free or very lousy perks before i went semi pro.

    I certainly dont think is right for newbies to charge rates higher than what they think they will be in the future. Thats just plain ripping off the consumer. Sure the economics of demand n supply may correct the problem but imagine the law of large numbers if every photog acted this way n consumers have no choice but to accept.


    That said one must be very discerning who to work for bcoz there are a lot of vultures out there.

    Instead of simply stereotyping all free jobs as vultures, u should consider what are the merits of working free for that someone? Is it for a longer term collaboration potential? Or for greater publicity. Not everything is about exposure.

    Although the jobs maybe listed free, but sometimes all you need is to ask to be minimally covered for food n drinks or transportation or some insurance coverage for photog equipment. For non vulture like human beings - all you really need to do is to them.

    For experienced guys worrying abt newbies spoiling market. Come on do u think they are really at your level?? An experienced one will be able to cover all angles give perfect photos in almost any condition. Can a newbie do that? Obviously someone w a tight or no budget is willing to risk that and potentially get very free gd photos. As an experienced guy you should differentiate yourself from them and educate the consumers.

    Food for thought everyone.
    read this thread
    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/video...ml#post7963350

    and preferably from this post #63
    they are too much newbies and they will moved on to the next

  17. #117

    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    Quote Originally Posted by hellothere11 View Post
    How many freelance newbies have time n chance to be paid as a photog trainee or intern? this also depends on your connections. What if u dont know anyone? Didnt u as a now experienced photog used to offer free services to your gd friends b4? What is the difference now that the definition of friends is slightly distorted?

    For experienced guys worrying abt newbies spoiling market. Come on do u think they are really at your level?? An experienced one will be able to cover all angles give perfect photos in almost any condition. Can a newbie do that? Obviously someone w a tight or no budget is willing to risk that and potentially get very free gd photos. As an experienced guy you should differentiate yourself from them and educate the consumers.

    Food for thought everyone.
    The industry is small and the amateurs overwhelms the pros at least 50 to 1. Freelance newbies can and do have the chance to work for those successful professional photographers, just whether they want to or not, whether they are selected and pass thru the screening process and whether they persevere and keep pushing or give up after 1 or 2 tries - very common. Some young people nowadays have high ego yet cannot take hardships. It is just a filtration process.

    If you don't know anyone, go out and know people. You cannot sit down and expect things to fall from the sky. Many people do not know how hard it was for the pros to get where they are, how many cold calls they made, rejection and abuse they took. The strawberry generation of today cannot take hardship or even a single bad comment. They immediately get defensive and proud.

    I seriously do not think the experienced guys are worried for themselves about newbies spoiling their market. I am more inclined to believe they have a bigger vision than that and that is a care and responsibility for the future of the industry.

    IMHO.
    Last edited by sjackal; 24th June 2012 at 11:05 AM.
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  18. #118

    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    Quote Originally Posted by hellothere11 View Post
    Hi all, i know many of you disagree with how newbies like to work for free n spoil the market. And im probably one of those deemed insensitive one because i posted on this forum for volunteers for a charity event in a club setting. But forgive me as im new here n try as i might i so did not see the post about not being able to ask for free stuff even if its for charity.

    I do disagree with the mentality and believe the newbies sometimes have to work for free but should be discerning about who to work free for. How many freelance newbies have time n chance to be paid as a photog trainee or intern? this also depends on your connections. What if u dont know anyone? Didnt u as a now experienced photog used to offer free services to your gd friends b4? What is the difference now that the definition of friends is slightly distorted? When i started out as a young dancer i too had my fair share of working for free or very lousy perks before i went semi pro.

    I certainly dont think is right for newbies to charge rates higher than what they think they will be in the future. Thats just plain ripping off the consumer. Sure the economics of demand n supply may correct the problem but imagine the law of large numbers if every photog acted this way n consumers have no choice but to accept.


    That said one must be very discerning who to work for bcoz there are a lot of vultures out there.

    Instead of simply stereotyping all free jobs as vultures, u should consider what are the merits of working free for that someone? Is it for a longer term collaboration potential? Or for greater publicity. Not everything is about exposure.

    Although the jobs maybe listed free, but sometimes all you need is to ask to be minimally covered for food n drinks or transportation or some insurance coverage for photog equipment. For non vulture like human beings - all you really need to do is to them.

    For experienced guys worrying abt newbies spoiling market. Come on do u think they are really at your level?? An experienced one will be able to cover all angles give perfect photos in almost any condition. Can a newbie do that? Obviously someone w a tight or no budget is willing to risk that and potentially get very free gd photos. As an experienced guy you should differentiate yourself from them and educate the consumers.

    Food for thought everyone.
    You have your points.

    Sure, if an event worth helping, it is ok to do it free of charge for the sake of helping. But generally, you can tell between the genuine intention for getting help free of charge then the one who just want to get free service.

    Most of the charity events that I help do offer to pay at my rates, but it is up to me to donate the money back to them. I don't like to work for free, but I don't mind donating my pay back to them. At the end of the day, they are still not paying one cent to engage me, but they know my point of being professional photographer.

    It is easier to charge for it and do your part later then the other way round to be honest. If your point about the event worth sponsoring is correct, I am sure they can see where you are coming from.

    As a professional photographer, I don't worry about competition who is doing their best to stay in front, this is a healthy competition and you need this as otherwise you will soon sit in your "comfort zone" and it is detrimental, but I generally don't like the so call amateur call themselves professional and over claim and over charge and continue getting bad name for the industry. Sure, one should charge as much as you can get away with, but make sure, you can get away from it every single time.

    I generally fire up when I have fierce competitions in the market to go back to the basic and rebuilding my brand like how I just started.... very hungry to get ahead.

    Even professional charge quite differently from one to another, so it is a fact that if the company who is hiring for photographer to find one who fit the bill with understanding about the photographer's skills.

    We can't expect everyone to be an award winning photographer, and we can't expect everyone charge the same as someone else...

    I always say, charge a fee that you know you constantly getting the job so there is a good stream of income and try to raise it so you can make some profit. I don't agree that you should come out and look at an establish photographer, ask about their rates and add or minus a percentage and try to sell your service.

    If you are capable of producing the same image quality, will you be able to match them in getting the business?

    Having great images help, but to be successful in business, there are more to it...

    2012 isn't an easy year, despite business continue grow for us, I know the market demand a lot more for the same money and a lot more hardwork you need to put in in bad economic times.Those just blame the bad economy, suffers.

    So if the perks is porfolio building, you can be assured that they are just trying their luck of getting something for free.

    Photographer, like any other profession, we do need to eat and maintain our lifestyle.

    Regards,

    Hart

  19. #119
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    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    actually don't need think so much...

    photography market is very volatile one. its not regulated as tightly as say other industries. barriers to entry considerably low too. if you gonna charge free/too high/unable to produce enough quality/don't market enough etc,

    om nom nom.

  20. #120
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    Default Re: In the name of "Portfolio Building"

    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post

    I seriously do not think the experienced guys are worried for themselves about newbies spoiling their market. I am more inclined to believe they have a bigger vision than that and that is a care and responsibility for the future of the industry.

    IMHO.
    Very true. It's got nothing to do with our own business, but about bringing respect to our industry. Making sure our peers are fairly treated and reimbursed for the services they rendered.

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