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Thread: m4/3 system vs Nex system vs DSLR

  1. #41

    Default Re: m4/3 system vs Nex system vs DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by fringster0 View Post
    Ha ha pinholecam, i don't think i can call the price of those pentax lenses not too expensive. They look real expensive to me. Seriously, buying a cam sys is really like marriage, wan to buy still must consider the lenses system. Ya Methree, i keeping my options open but i think i have to narrow my choices down to a few models, if not i sure the sales person will cry hell if i try out too many models, ha ha.
    narrow down to a few models then go to audio house at liang court on a weekday night.

    That place was quite empty n the salesmen bored so i was actually entertained for about 1 hour, the salesman even hooked up the A55 to the TV to let me see the 3D panorama shot, knowing i might not buy from him..

  2. #42

    Default Re: m4/3 system vs Nex system vs DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by fringster0 View Post
    Ha ha pinholecam, i don't think i can call the price of those pentax lenses not too expensive. They look real expensive to me. Seriously, buying a cam sys is really like marriage, wan to buy still must consider the lenses system. Ya Methree, i keeping my options open but i think i have to narrow my choices down to a few models, if not i sure the sales person will cry hell if i try out too many models, ha ha.

    Ha. Ha...
    This hobby is not a cheap one.
    Go to the price list section and have a look at the prices of all lenses of all brands to get a gauge what you are getting into.
    Gd luck

  3. #43

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    Methree: will consider the idea and maybe throw in a few drinks after that. Ha ha.
    For now i narrow down my m4/3 choice to either the ep -3, omd -5 and pana gx1x.
    The nex will be nex 5n and 7.
    Will be taking a look at nikon d7000, sony a77, pentax k -05, canon 60d.
    Ha ha, now to look at their lens.

  4. #44

    Default Re: m4/3 system vs Nex system vs DSLR

    I normally bring 2 Nikon body for shoot and my shoulder hurts.. so,... I think a mirrorless maybe good choice if you are a casual shooter. I owned a E-PL1 before and I like it also and light..all the best in your hunting

  5. #45

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    Depends on your shooting style though. I do have EP1 and i must say it is awesome in terms of image quality. The stabiliser is also very strong. Can shoot at low light without worries. If im going for casual shoot, i strictly bring m43rd or film slr. Those big flasguns may not be for everyone, it is bigger and almost as heavy as EP1 with pancake lens.

  6. #46

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    Unless you are going for a photography trip, I don't bring my DSLR when I travel. A Canon G12 is good for travel and I don't miss my DSLR at all.

  7. #47

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    Thanks pinholecam and hightone.

  8. #48

    Default Re: m4/3 system vs Nex system vs DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by fringster0 View Post
    Ha ha pinholecam, i don't think i can call the price of those pentax lenses not too expensive. They look real expensive to me. Seriously, buying a cam sys is really like marriage, wan to buy still must consider the lenses system. Ya Methree, i keeping my options open but i think i have to narrow my choices down to a few models, if not i sure the sales person will cry hell if i try out too many models, ha ha.
    I'm not sure why one would consider the pentax primes listed above as expensive if you compare it with m4/3. For example this few lenses that I can find,

    M.Zuiko 12mm -------- $1080 (MSC)
    Panasonic 7-14mm f4.0 (Panasonic-G1) ---------- $1,530 (MSC)
    45-200mm f4.0-5.6 (Panasonic-G1) ---------- $550 (MSC)
    Leica DG Summilux 25mm f/1.4 ASPH ---------- USD$539.00 (B&H)
    Lumix 20mm f/1.7 Aspheric G-Series Lens ---------- USD$339.95 (B&H)

    I've heard Pentax being criticised for being "not Pro" but being expensive is a new one!

  9. #49

    Default Re: m4/3 system vs Nex system vs DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by fringster0 View Post
    Thanks pinholecam and hightone.
    No probs.
    Just go try the cameras, research the prices for the system you need.


    Gd luck on your search and enjoy using what ever end up buying

  10. #50

    Default Re: m4/3 system vs Nex system vs DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by stuck View Post
    I'm not sure why one would consider the pentax primes listed above as expensive if you compare it with m4/3. For example this few lenses that I can find,

    M.Zuiko 12mm -------- $1080 (MSC)
    Panasonic 7-14mm f4.0 (Panasonic-G1) ---------- $1,530 (MSC)
    45-200mm f4.0-5.6 (Panasonic-G1) ---------- $550 (MSC)
    Leica DG Summilux 25mm f/1.4 ASPH ---------- USD$539.00 (B&H)
    Lumix 20mm f/1.7 Aspheric G-Series Lens ---------- USD$339.95 (B&H)

    I've heard Pentax being criticised for being "not Pro" but being expensive is a new one!
    Quote Originally Posted by pinholecam View Post



    Pentax DA Limited Prime Lenses


    DA 15mm f/4.0 ED AL Limited
    - $792 (SLRR) 1st May 2011
    DA 21mm f/3.2 AL Limited - $750 (AP-F) $719 (SLRR)(*sliver $784) 24th Sep 2011 , 750 (CP-P) 11th Aug 2010
    DA 35mm f/2.8 Macro Limited - $696 (SLRR) 14th Sep 2011
    DA 40mm f/2.8 ED Limited - $578 (SLRR) 25th Mar 2011
    DA 70mm f/2.4 ED Limited - $749 (SLRR) 7th Feb 2011 , 800 (MSC) 21th May 2010



    Pentax Prime (FA/DA/DFA)

    FA 35mm f/2.0 AL - $782 (SLRR) 1st June 2010
    FA 50mm F1.4 - $535 (SLRR) 3rd Jan 2011
    DA 35mm f2.4 (black) - $259 (SLRR) 14th Sep 2011
    DA40XS - $300
    D-FA 50mm f/2.8 Macro - $680 (MSC) 14th July 2010
    D-FA 100mm f/2.8 Macro WR - $824 (SLRR) - 25 Mar 2011 , $830 (OP) 15th April 2011
    If you compare the prices, for the equivalent focal length and aperture, Pentax lenses are less value for money. They may be cheaper in absolute terms, but offer smaller apertures. Why have a f4 prime when you have f2.8 zooms?

    -Oly 20mm f2 (S$1080) vs Pentax 15mm f4 (S$792)
    -Leica 25mm f1.4 (US$539) vs Pentax 35mm f2.4 (S$259)
    -Lumix 20mm f1.7 (US$339.95) vs Pentax 21mm f3.2 (S$750)

    Also, if you compare Pentax primes to Canon or Nikon primes, some are much more expensive and offer smaller apertures at the same time. There are definitely some that are cheaper (like the 50mm macro and 100mm macro), but generally, their primes are more expensive. Prices based on CS price list, using latest prices provided in that thread. US prices are from B&H.
    -Pentax FA 35mm f2 (S$782) vs Nikon 35mm f2D (S$535) vs Canon 35mm f2 (S$470)
    -Pentax DA 35mm f2.4 (S$259) vs Nikon 35mm f1.8 DX (S$330)
    -Pentax DA 40mm f2.8 (S$578) vs Nikon DX 40mm f2.8 Macro (US$276.95)
    -Pentax FA 50mm f1.4 (S$535) vs Nikon 50mm f1.4D (S$520)

  11. #51

    Default Re: m4/3 system vs Nex system vs DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by brapodam View Post
    If you compare the prices, for the equivalent focal length and aperture, Pentax lenses are less value for money. They may be cheaper in absolute terms, but offer smaller apertures. Why have a f4 prime when you have f2.8 zooms?

    -Oly 20mm f2 (S$1080) vs Pentax 15mm f4 (S$792)
    -Leica 25mm f1.4 (US$539) vs Pentax 35mm f2.4 (S$259)
    -Lumix 20mm f1.7 (US$339.95) vs Pentax 21mm f3.2 (S$750)

    Also, if you compare Pentax primes to Canon or Nikon primes, some are much more expensive and offer smaller apertures at the same time. There are definitely some that are cheaper (like the 50mm macro and 100mm macro), but generally, their primes are more expensive. Prices based on CS price list, using latest prices provided in that thread. US prices are from B&H.
    -Pentax FA 35mm f2 (S$782) vs Nikon 35mm f2D (S$535) vs Canon 35mm f2 (S$470)
    -Pentax DA 35mm f2.4 (S$259) vs Nikon 35mm f1.8 DX (S$330)
    -Pentax DA 40mm f2.8 (S$578) vs Nikon DX 40mm f2.8 Macro (US$276.95)
    -Pentax FA 50mm f1.4 (S$535) vs Nikon 50mm f1.4D (S$520)
    You have to compare apples with apples. For example, the comparison of Lumix 20mm f1.7 (US$339.95) vs Pentax 21mm f3.2 (S$750) is not fair because the former is a 40mm (normal lens in 35mm terms) while the latter is wide-angle (~30mm in 35mm equivalent).

    Without going into specifics, while it is true that Canikon does offer tremendously cheap 35 & 50mm lenses (as you accurately pointed out), you can't really compare them with the DA limited lenses from Pentax (the 15, 21, 40 & 70mm). This is because not only do they have better build quality (eg. all metal barrel), they also have unique design (check out the pictures posted by pinholecam on pg 2), which make them much smaller & lighter while giving top-notch image quality (this is subjective of course). As for the FA primes, they cover the full frame image circle & hence would naturally be more expensive to construct. The FA 35mm f2 is particularly unrealistically priced because it is already out of production (although i managed to snag one from BNS for half that price )

    On the topic of maximum apertures, I do agree that Pentax lenses generally are not as fast as the competition, but I presume this is due to their design philosophy of keeping things small & light - you see it in their dSLR bodies as well as their lenses, particularly the Limiteds - while offering apertures that are "fast enough" given the high iso capability of modern bodies.

    I hope I do not come across as a Pentax fanboy/apologist. Just trying to share what I know about the brand & I do sincerely believe they offer good value given the prices & should be considered in any serious camera purchase. But lets not detract too much from the TS's topic here. He would have to make a decision based on his own needs/wants & budget.
    Last edited by stuck; 8th March 2012 at 02:05 PM.

  12. #52

    Default Re: m4/3 system vs Nex system vs DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by brapodam View Post
    If you compare the prices, for the equivalent focal length and aperture, Pentax lenses are less value for money. They may be cheaper in absolute terms, but offer smaller apertures. Why have a f4 prime when you have f2.8 zooms?

    -Oly 20mm f2 (S$1080) vs Pentax 15mm f4 (S$792)
    -Leica 25mm f1.4 (US$539) vs Pentax 35mm f2.4 (S$259)
    -Lumix 20mm f1.7 (US$339.95) vs Pentax 21mm f3.2 (S$750)

    Also, if you compare Pentax primes to Canon or Nikon primes, some are much more expensive and offer smaller apertures at the same time. There are definitely some that are cheaper (like the 50mm macro and 100mm macro), but generally, their primes are more expensive. Prices based on CS price list, using latest prices provided in that thread. US prices are from B&H.
    -Pentax FA 35mm f2 (S$782) vs Nikon 35mm f2D (S$535) vs Canon 35mm f2 (S$470)
    -Pentax DA 35mm f2.4 (S$259) vs Nikon 35mm f1.8 DX (S$330)
    -Pentax DA 40mm f2.8 (S$578) vs Nikon DX 40mm f2.8 Macro (US$276.95)
    -Pentax FA 50mm f1.4 (S$535) vs Nikon 50mm f1.4D (S$520)

    I did not bring up the m4/3 examples, but anyway, just in case you are not aware, m4/3 12mm is not the same as APS-C 15mm and m4/3 20mm is not APS-C 21mm. Different equivalent FOV. Different level of optical distortion control and uniform sharpness too (in favor of APS-C lenses).
    Totally different build quality too. (in favor of Pentax - all metal construction)
    I have both m4/3 and Pentax stuff, and I always consider m4/3 to be a wonderful photographic compromise for performance/price/size/weight.


    Comparing Nikon to Pentax.
    Frankly, I really did not want to bring up such Canikon vs Pentax lens prices, as its always sensitive here which is why I did not bring up any other brand price list in my prev post, but since you brought it up.
    I also usually refrain from making lens vs lens comparisons, as it usually bring up a lot of unhappiness.
    I believe that all lenses are good within ones budget and needs.
    anyway, to clarify,


    All Pentax lenses benefit from SR for one.
    There are no shake reduction/VR lenses for Nikon in your list above.

    Do you realize how small and low encumbrance a DA15/4 is on APS-C compared to a f2.8 zoom?
    The folks using small nice lenses like Voigtlander 15/4.5 but be really silly people then to not know that they can actually use large, heavy, dangle at the neck f2.8 zooms.



    Nikon DX40 compared to DA40ltd? - different build quality; different lens type even (do you know how small the DA40 is?).
    Better to just compare with the DA40XS. S$300 only. (optically same as DA40ltd)
    Not to scale, but just to highlight the difference in size and lens type.


    To me too different lenses for different uses.
    DA40 - better CA control, more even sharpness through the image circle, rounded bokeh stopped down
    DX40macro - a bit more center sharpness, but less even thru image circle. A bit less CA control. but hey! its macro



    FA35/2 - better build quality again. Too bad it used to be much cheaper. (also see comment for DA35/2.4 compare to the Nikon 35/2)
    DA35/2.4 - Easily the better lens (same as FA35).
    More even sharpness throughout the image circle.
    The Nikon 35/2D is only center sharp and never really evens out across all apertures.
    Pentax SMC DA 35mm f/2.4 AL - Review / Lens Test - Analysis
    Nikkor AF 35mm f/2.0 D (DX) - Review / Lab Test Report - Analysis


    FA50/1.4 - should really be nearer to 50/1.4G ($812 ) as the build quality is more similar (ie. better than the "D") . Nikon 50mm f1.4D is a plastic fantastic.
    Unless you are telling me Nikkor 50/1.4G compared to Nikkor 50/1.4D is not a relevant comparison.
    Also don't forget the FA50 benefit from sensor SR fro mwhat is a 75mm equivalent focal length on APS-C.
    FA50 reaches a higher peak sharpness at f4 too.
    (for ref only, since photozone mtf values are not compatible across systems)
    Pentax SMC-FA 50mm f/1.4 - Review / Lab Test Report - Analysis & Verdict
    Nikkor AF 50mm f/1.4 D - Review / Lab Test Report - Analysis



    All in all, we get what we pay for.
    To be clear, I'm not saying whatever lens is bad.
    We win some, we loose some. All within budgets and needs.
    Last edited by pinholecam; 8th March 2012 at 02:28 PM.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: m4/3 system vs Nex system vs DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by PicturePriority View Post
    If you are looking to shoot kids, I suggest getting a camera with following characteristics:
    - fast shooting rate
    - fast auto focus and able to follow kids movement

    For the above points alone, I suggest getting the NEX series.
    Not only it has the fastest shooting rate (10fps if I am not mistaken) for its class it is also more affordable than the high end m4/3 cameras.






    ----------------------------------------------------
    Matt Mulyadi - Photoblog -

    But a bit lacking on good compact primes that allow you to shoot fast. M43 for me. Wait for the OM-D from Olympus

    It should be enough for your use, DSLR would be too much.

  14. #54

    Default Re: m4/3 system vs Nex system vs DSLR

    Yes, it is not possible to compare Pentax lenses to other brand lenses fairly because they have different build quality and things like that. However, what I'm trying to point out is that Pentax lenses are not cheap. Different people have different needs. Do you need that metal construction? Do you need your lens to be tiny? There are a lot of things to consider. Sometimes reviews emphasise a lot about build quality, but one must really consider if they really need it. How many people actually complain that their plastic lens fell apart after using it? I see a lot of people have their plastic kit lens in perfect condition after years of shooting, and yet reviews always say that they have horrible build quality.

    As for pancake lenses on DSLRs, I think it's a matter of personal preference. I tend to prefer some bulk in front of my camera body so I have something to hold on to, but I do admit that if you need to shoot with one hand only for some reason, it gets irritating to have a heavy lens sticking at the front.

    Lenses are not everything. As a lot of people here say, when you buy a camera, you buy into the whole system. It's not just the lenses or stabilisation or image quality you have to consider. It's the whole user interface, ergonomics, availability of equipment that you have to consider. I had a friend who jumped ship to Pentax recently and he complained that it was hard to find third party lenses in Pentax mount in Singapore. I'm not sure how true this is, but if it is true, it's something to consider as well.

  15. #55

    Default

    Thanks people, my knowledge of lens have gone up a notch just from the few threads you all post up. (*^_^*) but what I am trying to get is sort of a whole idea if I really progressed up a particular system.
    Cos for me, I properly stick to 1 system for a long time. That's why trying to find something like 'a perfect fit'. Not trying to start a lens war here, peace..

  16. #56

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    Stuck: I know that for cameras, the prices varies for each kind of lens. I mean it in absolute dollars kind of way. Ha ha, poor man here. Cheers..

  17. #57

    Default Re: m4/3 system vs Nex system vs DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by brapodam View Post
    Yes, it is not possible to compare Pentax lenses to other brand lenses fairly because they have different build quality and things like that. However, what I'm trying to point out is that Pentax lenses are not cheap. Different people have different needs. Do you need that metal construction? Do you need your lens to be tiny? There are a lot of things to consider. Sometimes reviews emphasise a lot about build quality, but one must really consider if they really need it. How many people actually complain that their plastic lens fell apart after using it? I see a lot of people have their plastic kit lens in perfect condition after years of shooting, and yet reviews always say that they have horrible build quality.

    As for pancake lenses on DSLRs, I think it's a matter of personal preference. I tend to prefer some bulk in front of my camera body so I have something to hold on to, but I do admit that if you need to shoot with one hand only for some reason, it gets irritating to have a heavy lens sticking at the front.

    Lenses are not everything. As a lot of people here say, when you buy a camera, you buy into the whole system. It's not just the lenses or stabilisation or image quality you have to consider. It's the whole user interface, ergonomics, availability of equipment that you have to consider. I had a friend who jumped ship to Pentax recently and he complained that it was hard to find third party lenses in Pentax mount in Singapore. I'm not sure how true this is, but if it is true, it's something to consider as well.

    I think I lost you.

    You started off saying some lenses are too big for MILC.
    Fine.
    I mentioned smallish primes and pancake lenses would suit it well.
    Now you claim big, heavier lenses are more preferred and somehow easier to hold??
    Actually everyone held the portion between camera and lens for smaller lenses since film days.
    Maybe in this day and age of big heavy zooms, ppl forget that lenses used to be pretty small for all brands

    You made an assertion that they are expensive.
    I showed the figures that they are not (not in the the whole scheme of lenses anyway).
    More like fairly priced within the $250 to $750 range, which most lenses are.
    There are real cheap ones too like the DA35/24 and DA40XS.
    You proceeded to handpick the cheapest lenses from various brands to show that Pentax lenses are expensive.
    Do you realize that some of these examples you used don't even work with AF on lower end bodies as they have no lens AF motor.

    I then listed various prices and information on how the lenses are not comparable and the Pentax lenses prices were commensurate to lenses of like focal length, quality, performance, image stabilization

    If you really only want the cheapest proposition.
    Sure, also got :
    M28/2.8 - ~$150
    M50/1.4 - ~$170
    M50/1.7 - ~$120
    M50/2 - Really dirt cheap $60 only
    M85/2 - $380
    K135/2.5 - $450
    and the list goes on... for all the 30+yrs of good and cheap legacy lenses avaliable.
    All fully usable w/o need for adapter and they benefit from SR (shake reduction) too.



    So now you say build not important, size is not important.
    Yeah, like IPPT run with boots or run with track shoe, not important.


    Somehow camera and lens. image stabilization, are not enough as a system?
    Only interface, egronomics, and stuff easy to buy is considered good system?
    Interface, ergonomics all can be re-learned and get used to. All cameras of all brands are not that different in the end.
    Easy of buying stuff and spend money easily more important for a system than image stabilization, weight, build quality..... hmm.... I really don't agree.
    Then I think Iphone wins as its got the most tweakable camera UI, just download appropriate camera app.

    You can also go check out in the Pentax sub-section on who uses Sigma/Tamron stuff, quite a few.
    If your friend has problems getting stuff, he/she can find out where to get them from the folks in the sub-section.
    Usually he/she can place an order at the shop too.



    To the TS, my apologies for turning your thread into some sort of slinging match.
    Gd luck on your camera quest
    Last edited by pinholecam; 8th March 2012 at 09:24 PM.

  18. #58

    Default Re: m4/3 system vs Nex system vs DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by pinholecam View Post
    I think I lost you.

    (...)
    My point, which I think I did not make clear, is that everyone has their own wants and needs. I said that pancake lenses work better for MILC cameras. I maintain that stand. However I did not make it clear that when I said I preferred bulkier lenses, it was because I use a DSLR system, not a mirrorless system. I think that was where you thought I contradicted myself.

    For me, as far as image quality is concerned, I believe all brands would work for me. Give me Sony or Pentax I also can produce the images I produce with my Nikon. But I choose to value the interface over any other factors, as it is something that can be easily differentiated across different brands. I can get used to other brands, but ultimately, the Nikon system would be the most comfortable system for me. I would be able to change settings faster and get the effects I want faster. Someone else might be slower with the Nikon but faster with the Pentax. I recognise that. But I like to have a fluid experience when I use my system, I don't want to "get used to" or use workarounds to get the effects I want.

    I see where you are going; you are saying that Pentax system has cheap legacy lenses as well as a unique range of compact primes with superior build quality, and has in body image stabilisation. Those are the key selling points of the Pentax system, and those are also the factors you consider to be important to you. However, those are not my priorities, and that is why I did not choose to buy into the Pentax system. They are very tempting, especially with the low price of the K5, but I still will not choose it over my current system.

    Again, my point here is that the TS must decide what factors are important to him. If portability is a concern, a m4/3 system or the NEX system is definitely the way to go. You don't just say that you use some form of workaround to make his wife more comfortable with the DSLR system, like getting her to lift weights so she will get used to the size and weight of a D3s.

  19. #59

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    Thanks pinholecam. I guess its jus that you are all very passionate abt this hobby. Cheers..

  20. #60

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    Thanks brapodam too. Ha ha, my wife won't be lifting weight anytime soon. She rather sleep, ha ha.

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