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Thread: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good [Discussion thread]

  1. #41

    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good

    hey ben,

    just a suggestion. perhaps the service wanted could do like B&S where the TS is required to fill in mandatory fields. and one of these would be fees which will have a minimum sum. i know it's not fool proof, but it will help filter off some free loader.

  2. #42
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good

    Quote Originally Posted by soeypixels View Post
    why this thread become in kpt??
    lol

    becos in KPT is far better than in Photo Biz.


    joke aside,

    IMO, I hope we don't really discuss about business dealing, but to disuses some topics like offering free services for exposure, experience and portfolio building.
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  3. #43
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good

    Quote Originally Posted by house3377 View Post
    hey ben,

    just a suggestion. perhaps the service wanted could do like B&S where the TS is required to fill in mandatory fields. and one of these would be fees which will have a minimum sum. i know it's not fool proof, but it will help filter off some free loader.

    a few suggestions from the members;

    - minimum photography charge recommendation

    - Ban TFCD

    - Open Free service wanted and offered section

    - photographers need to pay subscription to advertise services


    now add another one.....

    - imposing fee for posting photography service request.


    very headache
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  4. #44

    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good

    ben, you got me wrong lah. i am not asking for a fee to be paid for posting a thread. what i am saying is that the TS needs to indicate a fee that he is paying for a requested service.

    i.e. in B&S there is a field that indicates price of item. so in service wanted a similar field. just that it's mandatory.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    a few suggestions from the members;

    - minimum photography charge recommendation
    I like this. But instead of asking so nicely as a recommendation, should cram it down their throats. If they can't cover the min charge they should look somewhere else.

    For charities seeking foc, they have to approach a mod for approval.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good

    Must indicate org email account ,not using those public email account like gmail, yahoo..etc KXX if not any tom dick and harry can claimed that they r from charity org. Some TS are from event coy engaged by charity org to run their event and making use of the word charity event to look for free service in CS. Caught a few of them.... zzzzz


    Quote Originally Posted by foxtwo View Post
    For charities seeking foc, they have to approach a mod for approval.
    Im not a "free lunch" photographer

  7. #47
    Deregistered allenleonhart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good

    Quote Originally Posted by foxtwo View Post
    I like this. But instead of asking so nicely as a recommendation, should cram it down their throats. If they can't cover the min charge they should look somewhere else.

    For charities seeking foc, they have to approach a mod for approval.
    i second this approach.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by foxtwo

    I like this. But instead of asking so nicely as a recommendation, should cram it down their throats. If they can't cover the min charge they should look somewhere else.

    For charities seeking foc, they have to approach a mod for approval.
    Yup that's a good idea.

  9. #49
    Deregistered wootsk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good [Discussion threa

    If they want free, why they don't want to ask their volunteer who has a simple camera or video camera to do a more simple shoot. If it is some newbie volunteer, they also cannot determined the standard produced. Most pros has a rate (It is their rice bowl) and what they can only do is to try ask for a lower cost being a non-profit org. From my personal view, it is hard to trust those call non-profit org nowadays. I have a case of a friend in the grassroot where I felt she has been used during some political action when she is suppose to be a grassroot volunteer doing community work. (Cannot give more, else mod will knock me)

  10. #50
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good

    Quote Originally Posted by foxtwo View Post
    I like this. But instead of asking so nicely as a recommendation, should cram it down their throats. If they can't cover the min charge they should look somewhere else.

    For charities seeking foc, they have to approach a mod for approval.
    Quote Originally Posted by allenleonhart View Post
    i second this approach.
    most junior photographers thinking of moonlighting in photography to fund their hobby,
    let's have a rough idea of how the cost and earning will be like.

    let's say a newbie spend $2000 on camera (One entry level DSLR, One Lens and One flash), $500 on software (only lightroom), $200 on hardware (monitor calibrator), that work out to be $2700 on the equipment invested alone.

    if he able to secure 20 assignments each year, to recover the equipment within two years, each assignment will have a fixed cost of $67.50.

    and there is also a fixed expenses on going, regardless you have or don't have any assignments, like phone bill, website, advertisement, subscription of webminar, insurance, maintenance of gears etc...

    for each assignments, there will be a variable expenses, like transport, food, stationary, replenish items, materials etc,

    if his has a day joy of $2400 per month, working 44 hours per weeks, he makes $13.60 per hour with his day job, for photography assignment, usually happens on weekends, if he don't make double or triple his OT rate ($40.80-61.20), he should work OT in his workplace instead.

    for each two hours assignment, photographers average will spend another two to four hours on communication, planing, travailing, post processing, errands etc, but you can only charge two hours (shooting), as clients/customers do not see what you do behind the scene and they will not pay that, you need to factor the total hours you need to work into the chargeable hours.



    so how should a newbie photographer charge for an assignment?
    the basic formula is like this

    [fixed equipment cost]+ [fixed expenses] + [variable expenses] + [salary per hour] / [chargeable hours] = [hourly rate]



    explanation;

    [fixed equipment cost] we take the example of $2700, to write of in two years, each year able to get 20 assignments of 2 hours each, it work out to be $33.75 per hour

    [fixed expenses] phone bill $50 per month, website $120-240 per year, blah blah blah ...... each individuals is different, you need to work out your own expenses and factor that into your hour rate.

    [variable expenses] again, each individuals is different, you need to work out your own expenses and factor that in your hour rate. Do remember to mark up the material cost, like printing, you need to factor in wastage and rejects.

    [salary per hour] the total hours you can work, that including shooting, post processing, meeting, running errand, etc, you need to know how much your basic salary, after you factor your salary into your hour rate.

    [chargeable hours] the total hours which you can charge to your clients/customers of assignments, you still not making any profit yet, you just paying yourself, in order to make profits, you need to mark up this rate accordingly.



    so you should know why you can't ask what is the market rate and use that as your rate blindly, as many photographers did not work out the costing themselves, just the blind leading another blind.

    and worst, it makes many so call customers take that dirt cheap price as the norm market rate, expecting newbies photographers to match the price for the assignment.
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  11. #51

    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good

    my stand is this: if you want free photos, go buy a camera and shoot yourself, or use your mobile phone.

    i used to think these not-for-profit organisations are poor, but they are NOT!!!! they pay for everything when they hold an event but they pay nothing or close to nothing for the poor volunteer photographer!

    Someone said it is ok, because we can treat it like donation. But I only donate to needy I saw in India... and Buddhist monasteries in India.. i saw them, i give them the $, they get 100% of what I give. All these big org are too profound for me.. i like simplicity.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good

    Quote Originally Posted by Weird Guy View Post
    Must indicate org email account ,not using those public email account like gmail, yahoo..etc KXX if not any tom dick and harry can claimed that they r from charity org. Some TS are from event coy engaged by charity org to run their event and making use of the word charity event to look for free service in CS. Caught a few of them.... zzzzz
    Yes, and I think it's not inappropriate to ask them to prepare a proposal + cover letter. If we want to be treated professionally we have to project that image in ourselves too. As an organisation generating a proposal, explaining the event & purpose it shouldn't be too hard.

    Though I don't know if it's a bit extreme, since if a charity organisation approaches photographers from the yellow pages, I reckon most of us will not be asking for a proposal submission. So maybe just a cover letter will do, to help protect some of our newbie photographers.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post


    so you should know why you can't ask what is the market rate and use that as your rate blindly, as many photographers did not work out the costing themselves, just the blind leading another blind.

    and worst, it makes many so call customers take that dirt cheap price as the norm market rate, expecting newbies photographers to match the price for the assignment.
    implicit assumption is that every photographer here, aims to make photography as his job.

    which may not be true. i don't see a problem for someone who say, shoots as a hobby, to then volunteer his services for free at a charity.

    imho, it might be better, as it caters to a market of people who are unwilling/unable to pay. so the rest of the commercial market, the industry players can do what they want.

  14. #54
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good [Discussion threa

    let us have a discussion on the hourly rate, please take yourself as example, using this calculator,
    work out your day/hour rate and let us know your figure (please note this figure is just to breakeven, charging low than this you are making a loss)

    NPPA: Cost of Doing Business Calculator

    btw, my minimum hour rate is $150.00
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  15. #55
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    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    most junior photographers thinking of moonlighting in photography to fund their hobby,
    let's have a rough idea of how the cost and earning will be like.

    ....

    so you should know why you can't ask what is the market rate and use that as your rate blindly, as many photographers did not work out the costing themselves, just the blind leading another blind.

    and worst, it makes many so call customers take that dirt cheap price as the norm market rate, expecting newbies photographers to match the price for the assignment.
    Hi catchlights, don't understand, you think is good idea or not?

    I know it's a bit of a slippery slope to dictate market price. I think we can agree that this move is actually to protect junior photographers who are yet unable to negotiate their own rates and not to say this rate is how all photographers go by. Hence I'm not suggesting rates like $150-$200 per hour, but at least $80 per hour so as to leave a standard to negotiate by. By letting the client dictate the price ($30) it's very hard for photographers to counter-propose a higher amount, regardless of your portfolio.

    I have emailed quotes to select thread posters asking for service, but I've never got a job from them. I definitely do not charge dirt cheap but fairly based on the work required. I guess they feel I'm still charging sky high so never got a reply. One time a wellness company even say my day rate was the highest they saw (well, you did ask for my day rate). A wellness company mind you, their 1 package already how much. Anyway, we need to stop this rot of people coming in here to looking for cheap service. And I think a good way is to destroy their expectations regarding price right from the start.

    On the other side, for our junior photographers, they also have to buck up and understand negotiation as well as when to reject and walk away. Us as a forum can only do so much to help them. If even after we suggest a min rate and these photographers can still get taken advantage of then what else can we do to help them?

    I might as well tell them, hey, don't be a photographer/business owner la?


    ps. We can help some people, but not everyone. As soon as we can realise that, we can work towards it.
    Last edited by foxtwo; 24th February 2012 at 11:41 AM.

  16. #56
    Deregistered wootsk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good

    If my hourly rate is $30, seeing your face when you see my $30 work like a screw up piece is priceless.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good

    Quote Originally Posted by wootsk View Post
    If my hourly rate is $30, seeing your face when you see my $30 work like a screw up piece is priceless.
    Imagine when the $30 is for whole job

  18. #58
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good

    Quote Originally Posted by foxtwo View Post
    Hi catchlights, don't understand, you think is good idea or not?

    I know it's a bit of a slippery slope to dictate market price. I think we can agree that this move is actually to protect junior photographers who are yet unable to negotiate their own rates and not to say this rate is how all photographers go by. Hence I'm not suggesting rates like $150-$200 per hour, but at least $80 per hour so as to leave a standard to negotiate by. By letting the client dictate the price ($30) it's very hard for photographers to counter-propose a higher amount, regardless of your portfolio.

    I have emailed quotes to select thread posters asking for service, but I've never got a job from them. I definitely do not charge dirt cheap but fairly based on the work required. I guess they feel I'm still charging sky high so never got a reply. One time a wellness company even say my day rate was the highest they saw (well, you did ask for my day rate). A wellness company mind you, their 1 package already how much. Anyway, we need to stop this rot of people coming in here to looking for cheap service. And I think a good way is to destroy their expectations regarding price right from the start.

    On the other side, for our junior photographers, they also have to buck up and understand negotiation as well as when to reject and walk away. Us as a forum can only do so much to help them. If even after we suggest a min rate and these photographers can still get taken advantage of then what else can we do to help them?

    I might as well tell them, hey, don't be a photographer/business owner la?
    I understand your view,

    to teach a person how to fish is better give him a fish.

    that's why I show the calculator to let everyone work out their own sum.

    but we have seen lots of people still need spoonfeed, so let them learn things thru the hard way lor.
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  19. #59
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    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good

    Quote Originally Posted by house3377 View Post
    i think there needs to be a focus here in CS. does the admin want to allow visitors to solicit free services? if yes, then the rest should not start coming into such threads and post their opinion about organization not paying for service etc...

    this is not the first post of it's kind. and if rules don't change it will not be the last. status quo, there is always many side of the story to each his own opinion. nobody is absolutely wrong or right. if posting rules are status quo, there is really NO POINT in viewing your opinion. It is really a waste of time.

    personally i am not for soliciting free service. personally i feel CS should stop this kind of solicitation.
    nah.... we SHOULD allow these threads to pop up every few weeks or so ...... so that the message is reinforced each time that we dont welcome "Shoot for free/credit mentioned" or "Shoot for food" type requests

    This is a sort of a 'soft' reminder,awareness and reinforcement that photographers should have some self-respect for their own works

    Anyway its a free world ..... they can advertise..... you can choose to make your thoughts known too
    shaddap and just shoot .... up close
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  20. #60
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for Photographers / Videographers with passion for Good

    Quote Originally Posted by allenleonhart View Post
    implicit assumption is that every photographer here, aims to make photography as his job.

    which may not be true. i don't see a problem for someone who say, shoots as a hobby, to then volunteer his services for free at a charity.

    imho, it might be better, as it caters to a market of people who are unwilling/unable to pay. so the rest of the commercial market, the industry players can do what they want.
    my point is to let everybody knows there is a cost involve, wherether you want to make any money out of it or not,
    the photographers want to donate his time and talent away for a cause is really up to him.



    but if anybody want to come here ask for cheap or free photography services.

    I will show my most sincere smile, look into the person's eyes, speak in the most gentle and soft tone, tell him: "GO FLY A KITE"
    Last edited by catchlights; 24th February 2012 at 12:07 PM.
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