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Thread: D800 or D800E (moire consideration)(yet another thread on D800...)

  1. #1

    Default D800 or D800E (moire consideration)(yet another thread on D800...)

    Thom Hogan says:

    "More on Moire
    Feb 16 (commentary)--A recurring question in my In Box right now has to do with what subjects trigger moire.

    Moire happens when your sampling frequency (sensor pitch) begins to coincide with the captured detail frequency (subject pitch). As you pass the Nyquist frequency, problematic artifacts are produced, moire and color fringing being common ones on Bayer systems.

    However, nature is pretty random with frequencies while man isn't. Even things that look like exact patterns, like bird feathers or tree rings, usually aren't. They have some randomness to them much of the time, and thus when you shoot natural objects, the tendency to get large patches of moire is relatively low. It's possible, certainly, but in my experience, I've not photographed anything in the natural world where I've had an image ruined by moire. A few here and there that need some post processing touch up, but ruined, no.

    That's not exactly true in the man-made world (especially the Western cultures). Buildings tend to have all kinds of repeating patterns. We typically build on grids and we use products that have fixed sizes. Exactly the type of thing that can trigger moire. Same thing applies to the clothes we wear: many are made with repeating weaves with fixed size threads. Another common problem occurs with hair, where you don't get large blocks of moire, but you do get color fringing and artifacts on edges.

    It's not a coincidence that most of the moire examples you see in articles about it are one of three things: test charts, buildings, or fabrics. I have a screen door at my office that does a very nice job of showing moire when I need a sample.

    So the question you have to ask yourself before removing the AA filter on a camera is this: what do I shoot? Is it things that tend to occur in nature and mostly randomly, or is it things that have man-made, non-random components to them? If the former, it's going to be rare that you have to worry about post processing moire, and it's also not likely to be large and highly destructive moire, at that. If the latter, you're going to encounter moire a lot more often, and it can be over very large areas and occur in ways that are much more difficult to remove visually.

    That's a gross simplification, of course, but it's a good starting point from which to base a decision."

    I have a 1:2 chance of getting the D800 or D800E (pending CFO approval), was thinking about getting D800E for the additional acuity. But as an urban person who enjoys the occassional foray into landscape, I think the above analysis is pushing me towards D800. For argument sake, what would be your take on this issue of moire?

    It might, afterall, be academic if CFO turns down the request for new capital investment for what amounts to a high-depreciation low-return hobby. He he.

  2. #2
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Default Re: D800 or D800E (moire consideration)(yet another thread on D800...)

    D800 should be more suitable for you if you are not so into landscapes.

  3. #3

    Default Re: D800 or D800E (moire consideration)(yet another thread on D800...)

    Are you really that urgent? If not, just wait for production models to reach the hands of some people and there will be more than enough samples, reviews and opinions. Patience.

  4. #4

    Default Re: D800 or D800E (moire consideration)(yet another thread on D800...)

    Yes patience...

    Been waiting for this for so long that patience is sometimes hard to come by...

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    New Member kriegsketten's Avatar
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    Default Re: D800 or D800E (moire consideration)(yet another thread on D800...)

    I'm even more patient... I'm waiting for the D800S...
    Myflickr | Zoom in for the KILL!

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    Coming from using a dx body, i am impatient lol
    Nikon D90 : Nikkor 18-200VRII : Nikkor 18-55 VR : Nikkor 50mm f1.8 : Nikon SB-900

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    Senior Member Ansel's Avatar
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    Default Re: D800 or D800E (moire consideration)(yet another thread on D800...)

    From the current samples, even those having fabric and hair patterns, I did not notice any moire. Chances are, they won't bother me. So it is 800E for me, when the time comes for me to jump on.

  8. #8

    Default Re: D800 or D800E (moire consideration)(yet another thread on D800...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansel View Post
    From the current samples, even those having fabric and hair patterns, I did not notice any moire. Chances are, they won't bother me. So it is 800E for me, when the time comes for me to jump on.
    Totally agree! Not sure what the issue is here but I have the feeling people here aren't aware that cameras without AA filter have been around for ages and moire isn't an issue even at lower resolution cameras like the Kodak DCS Pro SLR and recent devices as the Ricoh GXR M-mount A12 module. lol

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by ageha

    Totally agree! Not sure what the issue is here but I have the feeling people here aren't aware that cameras without AA filter have been around for ages and moire isn't an issue even at lower resolution cameras like the Kodak DCS Pro SLR and recent devices as the Ricoh GXR M-mount A12 module. lol
    When the resolution gets higher moire gets more prominent. The wait advise is sound, this no AA bit not normally a problem is not.

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    Senior Member Ansel's Avatar
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    Default Re: D800 or D800E (moire consideration)(yet another thread on D800...)

    Quote Originally Posted by diediealsomustdive View Post
    When the resolution gets higher moire gets more prominent. The wait advise is sound, this no AA bit not normally a problem is not.
    DDAMD, I think it boils down to what subject you shoot most of the time. If you shoot nature, animals, landscape, underwater, etc, 90% of the time, you know you won't have to worry too much about it. But if you shoot fashion , architecture, with high chance of fine parallel lines and risk of moire, then of course the standard advice is for the one with AA filter.

    Maybe you should look back and your past images and ask yourselves which are the ones you think will potentially bring out moire, then, when the D800E comes out, just test it out with one of our bros here who got it, then decide for yourselves if it really is a problem.

  11. #11

    Default Re: D800 or D800E (moire consideration)(yet another thread on D800...)

    I worry about patterns in feathers or stuff like shrimp eyes for underwater macro... but I do hope NX2 and Lightroom can fix it easily. I have a D800E on order and a Nauticam housing on the way too to replace my D7000 and housing

  12. #12

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    Wow! Getting D800 and Nauticam housing in one go, that's going to hurt! Yup I worry about that moire in the shrimp eye too. But that's not what I worry about right now, but how to fund that.

  13. #13

    Default Re: D800 or D800E (moire consideration)(yet another thread on D800...)

    Quote Originally Posted by diediealsomustdive View Post
    When the resolution gets higher moire gets more prominent.
    Errr... I don't think this is right... I'm no expert on moire but everything I've read todate suggests the opposite. This is what Nikon says in its brochure on the D800/800E about moire: "Color artifacts and moiré are ** less ** frequent at the ** high ** resolutions supported by the D800/D800E," i.e., moire tends to occur when the lens outresolves the sensor resolution. That's why Nikon offers no AA option for the D800E (36MP) and not the D3x (24MP).

    To reduce moire, Nikon suggests using a small aperture (eg f22) so that the natural lens diffraction effect softens the image -- in this way, the lens then no longer outresolves the sensor, and moire is minimised. Pls see page 17:

    http://www.nikonusa.com/en_US/o/Y6wr...alGuide_En.pdf

    Rgds

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigpond

    Errr... I don't think this is right... I'm no expert on moire but everything I've read todate suggests the opposite. This is what Nikon says in its brochure on the D800/800E about moire: "Color artifacts and moir are ** less ** frequent at the ** high ** resolutions supported by the D800/D800E," i.e., moire tends to occur when the lens outresolves the sensor resolution. That's why Nikon offers no AA option for the D800E (36MP) and not the D3x (24MP).

    To reduce moire, Nikon suggests using a small aperture (eg f22) so that the natural lens diffraction effect softens the image -- in this way, the lens then no longer outresolves the sensor, and moire is minimised. Pls see page 17:

    http://www.nikonusa.com/en_US/o/Y6wr...alGuide_En.pdf

    Rgds
    Yup, I think that's correct. If the subject gets resolved high enough moire can't show up but of course that depends not only on the sensor but also on the magnification of the detail. If the pattern is too small for the sensor it might still show up I guess.
    Last edited by ageha; 24th February 2012 at 11:00 AM.

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    Senior Member Ansel's Avatar
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    Default Re: D800 or D800E (moire consideration)(yet another thread on D800...)

    Quote Originally Posted by ageha View Post
    Yup, I think that's correct. If the subject gets resolved high enough moire can't show up but of course that depends not only on the sensor but also on the magnification of the detail. If the pattern is too small for the sensor it might still show up I guess.
    I think Thom Hogan put it in a more precise way in the first post above:

    "Moire happens when your sampling frequency (sensor pitch) begins to coincide with the captured detail frequency (subject pitch). As you pass the Nyquist frequency, problematic artifacts are produced, moire and color fringing being common ones on Bayer systems. "

    The key word here is "coincide", that is, anything that is higher or lower will not be affected, only patterns that are "zun zun" (precisely) matching the resolving power of the sensor.

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    Default Re: D800 or D800E (moire consideration)(yet another thread on D800...)

    ...... moire or no moire ...... try then you know .............. there is always the BnS section .............
    Nikomi Canpen Zenten :eek:
    Not exactly 100% Natural but definitely the closest you can get to it

  17. #17

    Default Re: D800 or D800E (moire consideration)(yet another thread on D800...)

    Quote Originally Posted by ageha View Post
    Totally agree! Not sure what the issue is here but I have the feeling people here aren't aware that cameras without AA filter have been around for ages and moire isn't an issue even at lower resolution cameras like the Kodak DCS Pro SLR and recent devices as the Ricoh GXR M-mount A12 module. lol
    actually, it is an issue depending on subject matter... the Kodak DSLRs had that problem when fashion photogs tried it out, and recently I had a job where I had to spend quite a bit of time clearing out luminance moire from 40mp medium format shots I had received, which cut into the time I had to actually work on the brief... colour moire is easily handled in software but luminance moire's something that cannot be done at the touch of a button and you really need to dig in... even then how successful the luminance moire may be reduced depends on how badly the moire surfaces in the image...


    Quote Originally Posted by Kay Burn Lim View Post
    I worry about patterns in feathers or stuff like shrimp eyes for underwater macro... but I do hope NX2 and Lightroom can fix it easily.
    NX2 (as the D800 technical guide seems to suggest) and Lightroom 4, along with some other programs would probably have no problem with colour moire but luminance moire would likely still need to be tackled manually in Photoshop...

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