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Thread: what would you do?

  1. #61

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    just one question to kk and jay;

    what is the agreed "personal warrantee" period for this transaction?

    10 days or 1 month?

    according to kk, it is 10 days. yet he doesn't mind sharing in the repair costs *after* the 10-day period expired.
    according to jay, it is 1 month, yet he didn't object when kk offered him 10 days at the point of sale.

    damn confusing....

    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay
    You are explaining what was stated on the sales contract which I totally agree and have not disputed at all. I would have taken the same stance. However as I have earlier pointed out and which some of you too have missed the point of contention and that is at the point of sales, I have mentioned that I'll be going away for a month and the camera would be left high and dry untouched. I could test it during the wedding shoot when the camera is constantly fired with and without flash. This is the best case for a stress test, especially for a new CCD.

    If I have not mentioned this point to him, I wouldn't even notify him of the problem and would have accepted any cost I have to bear.

    Therefore the focus should not be on the 10 days warranty but rather what our 'soft' agreement was.

    Anyway I do thank all of you for giving your opinion but felt focus in most was on the stated contract but not on what transpired (or addendum) to the sales.
    Did he agree on your "soft agreement" if that's so, it's already more than 10 days already. So in that case why should he mentioned only 10 days only?

    If you told him that you could test the unit after a month, why dun you stress the test after you bought from him? I am sure 1 month's time is not all you have in the world. Since u mentioned in the thread, you are going for trip, why dun u either test it thoroughout before going?

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by tokrot
    Did he agree on your "soft agreement" if that's so, it's already more than 10 days already. So in that case why should he mentioned only 10 days only?

    If you told him that you could test the unit after a month, why dun you stress the test after you bought from him? I am sure 1 month's time is not all you have in the world. Since u mentioned in the thread, you are going for trip, why dun u either test it thoroughout before going?
    can kk and/or jay clarify....

    when kk sent jay the message asking if the S2 was working fine, did jay reply with the message "yes, the S2 is fine" or "yes the S2 seems ok BUT i can only confirm 100% after the wedding shoot".

    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by swimcraze
    ouch! this one stings!!!
    i think both sides are trying to present their sides of the case (esp when it wasn't Jay who started this thread) , don't think it is a fair remark huh mr ray?

    anyway, hope both sides can resolve this matter soon.
    all the best.
    hmm, sure sounds bad when you omit the rest of the text.. Sorry about that Jay.
    but i think to be fair, swimcraze, i think i was the one who ask Jay to state his side of the story in this forum. so it doesnt really matter to me if it wasnt Jay who start the thread. Its just that after Jay shared his side of the story, most members commented that 10days, MAY be contractually binding in the agreement, but the "gentleman understanding", that Jay insisted on BEING THE WHOLE POINT OF CONTENTION, wasn't.
    Like i emphasize, even if the camera was spoilt within the 10 days, it still may not meant KK had the legal obligation to refund the full amount as its only a warranty and not a guaranty.. So KK then, still can opt to replace, rather than refund of what KK thinks is fair. (Notice that this is also the case for most retail shops as well). But of cause, Jay will then have a strong point of contention and KK will have a foul name for bad service etc, But still, not legally binding..
    So the point is really, to accept that a mistake was made on both parts, and Jay is a victim of circumstances, NOT because KK was fraudulent. And i do think that KK, feeling bad about it and all that, by offering to pay for some ($150+-) was being "gentleman" for the "gentleman understanding" that Jay thought he had..

    Conclusion: 1) Jay is a victim.. i'm sincerely sorry about that.. and i'm sure most members are too..
    2) KK is NOT the cause of Jay being a victim. (i dont see how KK can be the cause of Jay being a victim no matter how hard i try to see from different point of views)

    Conclusion 2 will mean that KK is not liable to to compensate Jay.

    simple? I may be wrong, but that's the way i see it.. Cheers and happy shooting.

    Jay, i'm really really sorry about the camera.. hope you strike 4d to help you get another camera. a new one with warranty this time..

    Cheers

  5. #65

    Default Ur Problem

    I read ur problem, My opinion is u have done ur part and the 10 days are gone. Maybe that guy spoilt himself or drop it. U got to ask him or u got to check the dslr got any new scratched or crack. This is a sign of dropping it.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay
    What he has written in his 6 points are true but especially point 3 is a little understated.

    I told him I'll be leaving for a month but need to secure a camera for my niece's wedding on 26 November. Due to the rush, I tested fired 3 shots at the dealing place and another 3 shots at home a couple of days later.

    Jay, I symphatise wth your predicament.. however, what i dont understand is while u claimed your're busy and in a rush and take only 3 test shots during the transactions.. you did test the camera again few days later... did you not? but why only 3 shots? why didnt do proper testing then? which i believe wouldnt take much of your time anyway? I mean rather than surfing clubsnap for half an hour you could've carried our a pretty comprehensive testing..

    so to me Kho Khing has gone beyond what is required of him by trying to absord part of the repair costs.. just accept it and move on..

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaren
    just one question to kk and jay;

    what is the agreed "personal warrantee" period for this transaction?

    10 days or 1 month?

    according to kk, it is 10 days. yet he doesn't mind sharing in the repair costs *after* the 10-day period expired.
    according to jay, it is 1 month, yet he didn't object when kk offered him 10 days at the point of sale.

    damn confusing....

    Its not confusing ....

    The stated contract was 10 days but the 'soft' agreement I mentioned at the point of sales was when I use it to shoot my niece wedding on 26 November and this was the overriding condition. Its this occasion that I could stress-test the cam as it was having a new CCD. Unlike a lens where you can view thru it, I wouldn't know how on such a cam.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by drebel
    Jay, I symphatise wth your predicament.. however, what i dont understand is while u claimed your're busy and in a rush and take only 3 test shots during the transactions.. you did test the camera again few days later... did you not? but why only 3 shots? why didnt do proper testing then? which i believe wouldnt take much of your time anyway? I mean rather than surfing clubsnap for half an hour you could've carried our a pretty comprehensive testing..

    so to me Kho Khing has gone beyond what is required of him by trying to absord part of the repair costs.. just accept it and move on..
    My test shots were to ensure its still working with the batteries in place but not continuous picture taking that would stress the electronics.

    I do see that many has mentioned 'proper test' but really cannot comprehend what it means. Each individual has their own set of criterion for tests and I have my own. Maybe everyone should contribute and compile a standards (ISO perhaps?) so that all buyers can use.

  9. #69

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    jay, no need to argue more about the point on testing. no matter what international standard of testing that comes out, it is definitely not "3 shots".

    the key issue is like what zaren has pointed out... what was the agreed personal warranty period? if kk did not agree to an unfair one-month personal warranty period, why should jay assume kk will bear responsibility after his 10-day warranty? besides, as a seller, kk has already spelt it out clear... 10-day personal warranty. jay, if you dun agree, then why did you buy from him? dun u know that by buying from him, you are agreeing to his terms (eg price, venue, type of currency, etc)?

  10. #70
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    All sides are on the losing end here.

    I can emphasize with both parties here. Kho King, if he takes up responsibility of the fried CCD, would in effect be selling a S2 Pro for $800-ish. Jay has already got a dead S2Pro on hand with a big repair bill. By paying the repair bill on his own, Jay can in effect buy a new DSLR.

    In such a case, who would want to be on the losing end? No one, obviously.

    But as the saying goes, sh!t happens.

    Jay keeps mentioning the gentleman's agreement, probably grasping at straws in the hope he doesn't have to pay for repairing it, whilst Kho King is at least prepared to make good part of the repair cost. I don't know the motive of Kho King starting this thread, whether it is because he is genuinely distressed and unsure of what to do, or because he wishes to rally popular support, but this is a good thread to discuss issues like this, especially with the huge amount of equipment changing hands on the CS Forums daily.

    But as I read this thread, I am beginning to wonder if Jay has somehow thought he had managed to wheedle a 1 month warranty out of Kho King when the original stated warranty period was 7 days? Instead of a stated warranty it had become a gentleman's agreement, but in Jay's mind, no less binding in terms of responsibility.

    Though it exists in other industries, such as for automobile (3 years/100,000km, whichever comes first) warranty, as far as camera products go, there's never been such a warranty, for it would be hard to quantify usage. But even for cars, there is a timeframe where the warranty expires. In your understanding of warranty does that mean a 1 year of use warranty? Try alleging that to the servicing centre that you bought a camera more than a year ago, but did not use it at all in that period, and would like your one warranty to begin from when you started using the camera. That would be ridiculous wouldn't it?

    You claim that you would accept returns/refunds on faulty items you sold, are you saying that in an effort to prove your righteousness? It might bite you back sometime down the road if the guys you sold stuff to a few years ago decided to take up your offer.

    I shan't even mention the part about testing something thoroughly before you buy it, but just say, caveat emptor.

    At the end of the day, if Kho King chooses to pay part of the repair, take it as a bonus, Jay.

    To use an real life analogy:

    Yesterday I parked my car on the roadside, and when I came back, the left flank and rear door was dented by some son of a bitch who couldn't drive or park his car properly. If he was nice, he would have left his details for me to claim damages from him, but he wasn't. I wasn't around, so it was easy for him to just drive off and fix only his own car instead of footing my repair bill as well. So, for doing nothing wrong, I now have a dented car, and have to repair it out of my own pocket.

    Sometimes, bad things happen out of no one's fault. If it has to befall you, take it on the chin, and move on. You can't always hold Kho King responsible for the camera he sold to you.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by r32
    All sides are on the losing end here.

    I can emphasize with both parties here. Kho King, if he takes up responsibility of the fried CCD, would in effect be selling a S2 Pro for $800-ish. Jay has already got a dead S2Pro on hand with a big repair bill. By paying the repair bill on his own, Jay can in effect buy a new DSLR.

    In such a case, who would want to be on the losing end? No one, obviously.

    But as the saying goes, sh!t happens.

    Jay keeps mentioning the gentleman's agreement, probably grasping at straws in the hope he doesn't have to pay for repairing it, whilst Kho King is at least prepared to make good part of the repair cost. I don't know the motive of Kho King starting this thread, whether it is because he is genuinely distressed and unsure of what to do, or because he wishes to rally popular support, but this is a good thread to discuss issues like this, especially with the huge amount of equipment changing hands on the CS Forums daily.

    But as I read this thread, I am beginning to wonder if Jay has somehow thought he had managed to wheedle a 1 month warranty out of Kho King when the original stated warranty period was 7 days? Instead of a stated warranty it had become a gentleman's agreement, but in Jay's mind, no less binding in terms of responsibility.

    Though it exists in other industries, such as for automobile (3 years/100,000km, whichever comes first) warranty, as far as camera products go, there's never been such a warranty, for it would be hard to quantify usage. But even for cars, there is a timeframe where the warranty expires. In your understanding of warranty does that mean a 1 year of use warranty? Try alleging that to the servicing centre that you bought a camera more than a year ago, but did not use it at all in that period, and would like your one warranty to begin from when you started using the camera. That would be ridiculous wouldn't it?

    You claim that you would accept returns/refunds on faulty items you sold, are you saying that in an effort to prove your righteousness? It might bite you back sometime down the road if the guys you sold stuff to a few years ago decided to take up your offer.

    I shan't even mention the part about testing something thoroughly before you buy it, but just say, caveat emptor.

    At the end of the day, if Kho King chooses to pay part of the repair, take it as a bonus, Jay.

    To use an real life analogy:

    Yesterday I parked my car on the roadside, and when I came back, the left flank and rear door was dented by some son of a bitch who couldn't drive or park his car properly. If he was nice, he would have left his details for me to claim damages from him, but he wasn't. I wasn't around, so it was easy for him to just drive off and fix only his own car instead of footing my repair bill as well. So, for doing nothing wrong, I now have a dented car, and have to repair it out of my own pocket.

    Sometimes, bad things happen out of no one's fault. If it has to befall you, take it on the chin, and move on. You can't always hold Kho King responsible for the camera he sold to you.
    Indeed I am not grasping at the last straw but rather clarifying what transpired between him and myself. KK has been seeking opinion of what he should do and myself simply clarification the points. Most contributor simply justs to the terms of the contract but ignoring what transpired between KK and myself.

    I didnt squeeze KK (which he can vouch for) for the extension but rather told him directly and with my reasons. He didn't protest or counter my request and this was done at the point of sales, not after it nor when the problem occured.. short and simple. Its very straight forward between him and myself and if anyone can see the liability is his but yet I did offer him 50% split of the cost. I should say its a bonus to KK.

    Like I mentioned earlier, if I didn't have this understanding with him I wouldn't have bothered him as the 10 days warranty is over which is again plain and simple. It needed no explanation at all unless one is an uneducated moron.

    I have not blamed KK for anything. In fact we are still working in the background to get the problem resolved and definitely without any salvo fired.

    Taking it on my chin is not a problem for me but it simply ran counter to the principle.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by r32
    I don't know the motive of Kho King starting this thread, whether it is because he is genuinely distressed and unsure of what to do, or because he wishes to rally popular support...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay
    Indeed I am not grasping at the last straw but rather clarifying what transpired between him and myself. KK has been seeking opinion of what he should do and myself simply clarification the points. Most contributor simply justs to the terms of the contract but ignoring what transpired between KK and myself.

    my point exactly.


    NO ONE knows better what transpired between the two parties EXCEPT the buyer and seller themselves during the time of transaction. What is the point of making it a public issue? To rally a mob mentality? No third party can help to change what was agreed or unspoken apart from the buyer 's and seller's own integrity and conscience. By bringing out this matter in the open will only complicate matters and distort the real issue and create unneccessary discord. I feel that it is an issue that both gentlemen will have to resolve on their own behind closed doors. No third party should be in the position to judge based on what is written in the threads alone.

    my say.
    Last edited by swimcraze; 7th December 2004 at 04:34 AM.

  13. #73
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    feel really bad for both buyer and seller.....

    this is the worst kind of transaction to have, either as a seller or a buyer....

    but the question is whether KK agreed to the "soft" agreement or not......
    silence does not mean consent...... or does it ?

    this is a very complicated issue.... and it seems like having a win-win situation is near to impossible......

    can't offer much of any solution here, only buyer and seller has to work this out among themselves...
    Hope to learn from everyone here....

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by erictan8888
    feel really bad for both buyer and seller.....

    this is the worst kind of transaction to have, either as a seller or a buyer....

    but the question is whether KK agreed to the "soft" agreement or not......
    silence does not mean consent...... or does it ?

    this is a very complicated issue.... and it seems like having a win-win situation is near to impossible......

    can't offer much of any solution here, only buyer and seller has to work this out among themselves...
    Thank you EricTan and Swimcraze for hitting the point.
    Yes both KK and I are working towards a win-win situation by presenting the case to Fuji. There's no reason why TWO CCDs failed within 6 month of each other.

    Will not be referring to this thread anymore and will take it offline with KK.

    Cheers

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay
    Thank you EricTan and Swimcraze for hitting the point.
    Yes both KK and I are working towards a win-win situation by presenting the case to Fuji. There's no reason why TWO CCDs failed within 6 month of each other.

    Will not be referring to this thread anymore and will take it offline with KK.

    Cheers
    yah...lock the thread and throw away the key!

  16. #76
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    Thread locked. Advise KK and Jay to settle this offline.

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