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Thread: what would you do?

  1. #41

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    hi guys, thanks very much for the comments and sharing my "problem".

    I think Jay and I have a misunderstanding. In my case, I thought I only need to give 10 days money back guarantee and not one month, though I do understand that Jay's intention to buy the S2 is for a wedding shot a month later. In Jay's case, he thought I will give him the money back guarantee till after he tested the S2 thoroughly in the wedding shot a month later.

    the original buy sell thread is at:
    http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=96595
    (there I put 7 days money back guarantee, but I gave Jay 10 days instead)

    I am acutally quite worry of giving 10 days money back guarantee for a DSLR, as it is a very sensitive equipment, thus I pm Jay a few days later to assure that the S2 is working fine. Got reply from him and I am relief. After 10 days, I thought my responsibility is off.

    If the cost of repair is not much, then I would share the cost and continue making friends here. However, changing CCD costs S$1600+ and 50% means S$800+. I sold my S2 to Jay at S$1650, if I have to pay up S$800+ for the repair cost, that means I am selling my originall perfectly fine S2 Pro at S$850-, which I would never do and rather keeping it for my own use bheart:

    That S2 has previous service history at Fuji Malaysia, thus faking receipt is not possible. I have tried getting warranty from Fuji Malaysia these few weeks, and just few mins ago my friend told me that it is not possible (fuji malaysia insisted that warranty has expired and they can't do anything now)

    The reason I bring this to the public is to share a DSLR buysell experience with CSers here, and wanting to know what would you do if you were in my shoe
    DR KOH KHO KING

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kex
    would u refund if u are kk ?

    i feel that going to china and unable to check is not the seller problem..
    I would as a matter of my honour and principle. I dont know about others.
    In fact I have sold a couple of cams and lenses and did tell the buyers that they could return it to me even if its more than a month if they are not happy about it. I believe one should pay for good value.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by user111
    aiya both of u half half pay the repair cost, shake hands each side say sorry and get on with life la. if dun want the continue fighting lor
    If you have noticed, there isn't any fight but rather KK seeking opinion and clarifications from me. We're not children and like to see problems resolved in the most accomodating way.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay
    If you have noticed, there isn't any fight but rather KK seeking opinion and clarifications from me. We're not children and like to see problems resolved in the most accomodating way.
    it's good that you guys are not fighting. we've seen people arguing on clubsnap over much more trivial matters.

    i have some views on the matter.

    about the testing procedures, i believe the conclusion is clear. an important purchase should be dealt with more carefully by the buyer. it may seem to everyone including myself that since the 10-day return period has been passed, the cam can't be refunded anymore. therefore jay should pay for all or most of the repair charges.

    however, jay still has a point in that he proposed to increase the 10-day warranty period to a month. is there evidence of an agreement to the (unfair) extension? if so, kk still has a responsibility. if not, any contribution by kk (eg 10%) to the repair charges i will view it as a gentlemanly move.

    please note that the above represents my views on the issue and i apologise if there is anything irrelevant/biased/inappropriate to this thread. the thread starter asked for views, so i voice out mine

  5. #45
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    Hi Jay,

    How do you really thoroughly test a DSLR on an event?

    From what I understand, that's not a right way to test a DSLR and it's working capabilities.

    The 10 days warranty is all that KK has promised and would have kept to it.

    It's a very simple case, not that I'm against KK in splitting the cost of repair with you, but in this buy/sell case, KK has all rights to NOT split the cost of repair with you as his terms and conditions were simple. 10 days.

    If you refuse to test the camera within the 10 days and insist that AFTER 1 month you'd be able to test only, then it's entirely you own fault (sorry for the harsh word here).

    I would simple refuse to split the cost myself based on the following grounds:
    • 1 month+ has passed, benefit of doubt to the seller on how should he be convinced the camera wasn't taken care of properly and not abused during the 1 month to it's death?
    • 10 days was the warranty, anything AFTER the period, is all yours.
    • It's your responsibility to TEST the camera after purchase and feedback.
    • Put yourself in the seller's shoes, now KK comes to you and tells you this... how?


    Personally, one cannot give more than so much an amount of warranty, anybody including me would be tempted to abuse this 'trust'.

    However I believe he is fair and the intentions of the replies here is clear, you can't blame anybody.

    It might be hard to swallow this and with all good intentions, we know you're a responsible buyer and have been around for long, but it's really not acceptable to split the repair cost since now you've already held the camera for over a month.

    This is the case of buy something, spoil down the road - LL (army term).

    Nobody expected anything.

    Personally had this encounter too... I sold a device to another person, told him within 1 week I would refund his money if faulty. He didn't bother to test till the 2nd week (or so he said), and he just said since the warranty is over, he has no choice but to accept the fact it's his 'fault' in 'damaging' the item.

    I have to protect myself, I did say 1 week. No more, no less. So did KK.

    Cheers!

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kho King

    If the cost of repair is not much, then I would share the cost and continue making friends here. However, changing CCD costs S$1600+ and 50% means S$800+. I sold my S2 to Jay at S$1650, if I have to pay up S$800+ for the repair cost, that means I am selling my originall perfectly fine S2 Pro at S$850-, which I would never do and rather keeping it for my own use bheart:

    That S2 has previous service history at Fuji Malaysia, thus faking receipt is not possible. I have tried getting warranty from Fuji Malaysia these few weeks, and just few mins ago my friend told me that it is not possible (fuji malaysia insisted that warranty has expired and they can't do anything now)

    The reason I bring this to the public is to share a DSLR buysell experience with CSers here, and wanting to know what would you do if you were in my shoe
    You mean you won't mind sharing the costs if it is $50 or $100? but in this case, you do mind because it is $850? So where do we put the finger on now? The principle or the figures? So are you not intending to share the expenses because of your principles or because of the high costs??? Isn't it kinda conflicting here?

    It was mentioned that the CCD was replaced but how long was the warranty? If it is has expired, it means that it has been long enough for the CCD to be replaced again right?

    well, my point is, if there is genuine integrity and real interest in solving this problem, there shouldn't be a need to make it a public issue.

    just my opinion.
    Last edited by swimcraze; 5th December 2004 at 04:27 PM.

  7. #47

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    love to stay out, but have one question for KK. the replaced CCD would have come with a warranty. has it expired? if it has, how long has lapsed between the end of its warranty and the time it 'died' (whilst in the buyer's possession). do not feel compelled to reply if you feel unnecessary.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.A.
    From the details you've written, KK had also been upfront & honest to tell you that the CCD had been replaced too. Not many would do that if they want to sell you something.
    read the buy and sell thread again.
    http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=96595

    he didn't mentioned that the CCD was replaced in his initial description (10), it was other CSers who reminded him to mention it.

    Don't be too quick to brand someone as upfront and honest when we don't know them personally.

    once again, just my opinion.

  9. #49

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    The Moral of the Story :

    Try not to buy a 2nd hand Digital SLR if possible. DSLR is much more different from conventional SLR, technically speaking.

    Nobody knows how did the previous owner use it? Worst still, CCD has been changed before, why changed? As the buyer, since you know about it, you should have avoided buying a changed CCD DSLR even though it's cheap.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by reachme2003
    love to stay out, but have one question for KK. the replaced CCD would have come with a warranty. has it expired? if it has, how long has lapsed between the end of its warranty and the time it 'died' (whilst in the buyer's possession). do not feel compelled to reply if you feel unnecessary.
    having read swimcraze's post after mine. the warranty expired in Nov 2004. you reported the sale on 25 Oct 2004. i will assume, for this purpose, that the transacted date was 25 Oct. One month later, that will be 25 Nov 2004. so, the CCD 'died' (again) in the same month that its warranty expired. Besides, it was the same part/s which was replaced under its original warranty. There may be other part/s in the camera causing the CCDs to 'die'.

    From the above, you may have a case to present to Fujifilm Malaysia. seek assistance from consumers assoc or equivalent there if Fujifilm's stand on this is non-accomodating. however, if you are pursuing this course of action, i would advise you to do it pronto. document your case in writing.

    this may be one of the options available to you. the choice is yours.
    Last edited by reachme2003; 5th December 2004 at 07:29 PM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    Hi Jay,

    How do you really thoroughly test a DSLR on an event?

    From what I understand, that's not a right way to test a DSLR and it's working capabilities.

    The 10 days warranty is all that KK has promised and would have kept to it.

    It's a very simple case, not that I'm against KK in splitting the cost of repair with you, but in this buy/sell case, KK has all rights to NOT split the cost of repair with you as his terms and conditions were simple. 10 days.

    If you refuse to test the camera within the 10 days and insist that AFTER 1 month you'd be able to test only, then it's entirely you own fault (sorry for the harsh word here).

    I would simple refuse to split the cost myself based on the following grounds:
    • 1 month+ has passed, benefit of doubt to the seller on how should he be convinced the camera wasn't taken care of properly and not abused during the 1 month to it's death?
    • 10 days was the warranty, anything AFTER the period, is all yours.
    • It's your responsibility to TEST the camera after purchase and feedback.
    • Put yourself in the seller's shoes, now KK comes to you and tells you this... how?


    Personally, one cannot give more than so much an amount of warranty, anybody including me would be tempted to abuse this 'trust'.

    However I believe he is fair and the intentions of the replies here is clear, you can't blame anybody.

    It might be hard to swallow this and with all good intentions, we know you're a responsible buyer and have been around for long, but it's really not acceptable to split the repair cost since now you've already held the camera for over a month.

    This is the case of buy something, spoil down the road - LL (army term).

    Nobody expected anything.

    Personally had this encounter too... I sold a device to another person, told him within 1 week I would refund his money if faulty. He didn't bother to test till the 2nd week (or so he said), and he just said since the warranty is over, he has no choice but to accept the fact it's his 'fault' in 'damaging' the item.

    I have to protect myself, I did say 1 week. No more, no less. So did KK.

    Cheers!
    You are explaining what was stated on the sales contract which I totally agree and have not disputed at all. I would have taken the same stance. However as I have earlier pointed out and which some of you too have missed the point of contention and that is at the point of sales, I have mentioned that I'll be going away for a month and the camera would be left high and dry untouched. I could test it during the wedding shoot when the camera is constantly fired with and without flash. This is the best case for a stress test, especially for a new CCD.

    If I have not mentioned this point to him, I wouldn't even notify him of the problem and would have accepted any cost I have to bear.

    Therefore the focus should not be on the 10 days warranty but rather what our 'soft' agreement was.

    Anyway I do thank all of you for giving your opinion but felt focus in most was on the stated contract but not on what transpired (or addendum) to the sales.

  12. #52
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    Hi Jay,

    well yes, but like you said, the contractual portion was only the 10 days. A lot of things can happen even leaving the camera high and dry untouched. The responsibility here is something I'm highlighting also, you're responsible to test the camera after purchase and not months after.

    Soft agreements are agreements not in black/white. You can't claim anything on it.

    You weren't there to make sure the camera was not touched when you weren't around.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    Hi Jay,

    well yes, but like you said, the contractual portion was only the 10 days. A lot of things can happen even leaving the camera high and dry untouched. The responsibility here is something I'm highlighting also, you're responsible to test the camera after purchase and not months after.

    Soft agreements are agreements not in black/white. You can't claim anything on it.

    You weren't there to make sure the camera was not touched when you weren't around.
    Yes, soft agreement are always not in black and white but is something we know as honour and integrity.

    The cam was placed inside my dry cabinet and since my wife and I were away, that leaves my two daughters who dont handle DSLR and has to attend their lessons almost daily at NUS. Who else?

    I understand your statement and it would be possible if it has been left elsewhere but no, I'm the only one who handles all these.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by reachme2003
    having read swimcraze's post after mine. the warranty expired in Nov 2004. you reported the sale on 25 Oct 2004. i will assume, for this purpose, that the transacted date was 25 Oct. One month later, that will be 25 Nov 2004. so, the CCD 'died' (again) in the same month that its warranty expired. Besides, it was the same part/s which was replaced under its original warranty. There may be other part/s in the camera causing the CCDs to 'die'.
    http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=96595

    as stated in the above sales thread by choen and louispang (uncontested by the seller) this S2 pro has a problematic history - CCD and sensor. Maybe there is a reason why the seller should want to sell the camera just before the warranty expires? (don't need to bear any unwarranted repairs later on??) Well, the bottomline is that the seller knows the problematic history of the DSLR, he was just lucky that Jay didn't discover it within the 10 days grace (maybe the 10 days was still within the warranty grace given by Fuji Malaysia). I feel that there is some grey area here, not something that is simply black and white as stated by espn.

    my say.

  15. #55

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    swimcraze,
    Appreciate your comments and reply on this. However, Jay and I have communicated thoroughly before we meet up and transact and he understand perfectly the replacement history of the CCD. I didn't state that in the post but I did explain to Jay the history of the S2 before I sold him the DSLR. In fact, I do believe and thought that the new CCD would be better than the old CCD. FYI, the CCD was replaced in June, while it is still under warranty, so Fuji Malaysia didn't want to give any extended warranty (warranty till 22nd Nov if I remember correctly now).

    It is not that I don't want to help out in claiming warranty from Fuji Malaysia, I did tried and so do Jay...but Fuji Malaysia simply saying that the warranty has expired.

    If the repair cost is S$50~150, then I won't mind paying for it just to reduce the trouble and continue making friends. It is not becos I am guilt (judge yourself here), but rather solving the problem fast and moving forward. If you think if I pay say S$1 meaning that I am guilt and want to cover something up, then I shouldn't pay any at all? I understand the pain of Jay and I feel sorry for an expensive DSLR to break down, but the point is...am I responsible for the repair cost? I have told Jay that I would pay up S$150 for the repairing cost and in the mean time I am trying to get a quote from Fuji Malaysia for the CCD replacement there That's the best I can do
    DR KOH KHO KING

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay
    Yes, soft agreement are always not in black and white but is something we know as honour and integrity.

    The cam was placed inside my dry cabinet and since my wife and I were away, that leaves my two daughters who dont handle DSLR and has to attend their lessons almost daily at NUS. Who else?

    I understand your statement and it would be possible if it has been left elsewhere but no, I'm the only one who handles all these.
    Honour and integrity works both ways, you need to give the seller the benefit of the doubt that it has been in your hands for > 1mth and it's already over 10 days.

    A lot of things can happen, the benefit of the doubt is that you held the camera for > 1mth and is responsible for that 'act' regardless did you use it or not. Like you said you had 2 daughters, I don't mean to malign them but they could have and MIGHT, I mean, nobody knows.

    I won't even trust myself leaving my dry cabinet at home whilst I go on holiday without coming back and worrying of my other equipment at home.

    You know where you're coming from and I do empathise with you on this issue, but from my stand, I'm not taking sides - is that you need to be responsible for this.

    The seller is not with any liability to replace your equipment.

    I understand how u feel dude, but if it's me I'd have to face the fact too

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by swimcraze
    http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=96595

    as stated in the above sales thread by choen and louispang (uncontested by the seller) this S2 pro has a problematic history - CCD and sensor. Maybe there is a reason why the seller should want to sell the camera just before the warranty expires? (don't need to bear any unwarranted repairs later on??) Well, the bottomline is that the seller knows the problematic history of the DSLR, he was just lucky that Jay didn't discover it within the 10 days grace (maybe the 10 days was still within the warranty grace given by Fuji Malaysia). I feel that there is some grey area here, not something that is simply black and white as stated by espn.

    my say.

    your avatar is really scary...

    So what if the seller wants to sell the camera before the warranty expires? Then why would the buyer buy without the manufacturer's warranty? I for one would never buy a second hand item if i do not know how to tell lemons from oranges.. The buyer is taking the risks and responsibility for himself WHEN he offer to buy a camera, in that he knows how to tell a good buy vs a bad one.. and it is this "EXPERTISE" of judging, that enables him/her to come to the 2nd hand market, and get a GOOD BARGAIN.. If the buyer want a FAIR bargain, go get the camera off the retail shop, and ask for a freebie or something..

    to Jay:
    You cant expect to buy a car from a previous owner (thus skimping on agent's fee and service premium) and expect the seller to provide you after sales service.. you want that? pay more to buy from agent, or better, buy brand new.. the price you pay, has already incorporate the risk you are willing to take.. so grow up.. and stop whining.. Am really sorry that this unfortunate event has to take place, but u do 10 good, cheap bargain deals, expect to have one turn out like this.. Treat it as a lesson learned. Will help to save a lot of money and time in future.. and just accept whatever amount KK offered to subsidice out of his good will, and get on with life.. Happy shooting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stingraytan
    your avatar is really scary...

    hahaha....oooooooooooo (ghostly sound)
    sure the seller can sell the DSLR at anytime he wants...i am just trying to make sense of the case...nothing wrong right? i wonder if secondhand camera shops provide some form of shop warranty if one were to get a DSLR from them. I know they do provide 3 months warranty for lens but how about CCD for DSLR??? anyone knows?
    Last edited by swimcraze; 6th December 2004 at 02:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stingraytan

    to Jay:

    .. so grow up.. and stop whining.. .
    ouch! this one stings!!!
    i think both sides are trying to present their sides of the case (esp when it wasn't Jay who started this thread) , don't think it is a fair remark huh mr ray?

    anyway, hope both sides can resolve this matter soon.
    all the best.
    Last edited by swimcraze; 6th December 2004 at 03:00 PM.

  20. #60
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    Pay peanuts get monkeys..

    u alrdy old enuff,dun u understand this type of simple thing?

    u buy 2nd hand,of coz have a risk involved in it.

    U want premium after sales service,u have to pay more and get it from retail outlet and pay even more for extended warranty if any.

    buay hiao pai say..

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