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Thread: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    Quote Originally Posted by blackman View Post
    I don't understand why you worry so much about resolution of older prime lens.
    For D7000, 16MP 23.6x15.6mm2 size, it would be around 208pixel/mm.
    For D800, 36MP 36x24mm2 size, it would be around 204pixel/mm.

    If you dont have problem using 85f1.4D or 50f1.4D on D7000, why should you have problem using on D800?
    You have answered your own question... 85 f1.4D & 50 f1.4D cannot even resolve properly for a 12 mpx crop camera in my standards.

    On the D300S it is compulsory for me to stop down to f2 for the case of the 85 f1.4D. This is not autofocus issue. Depth is plenty at crop factor shooting distances.

    For the case of 50 f1.4D it is more of the horrendous CA for most copies (some of the made in japan ones seem to perform better). There is still sharpness within the heavy CA.
    Last edited by surrephoto; 11th February 2012 at 08:18 PM.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post
    What do you think about AIS lenses?

    Maybe the older lenses won't look as good in comparisons but to call it crap and disastrous so early without even using it or a doing proper tests is an overstatement.
    Hi sjackal... i'm confident about my statements if the main concern is resolution and sharpness. Many lenses that fail in resolution department actually do well in contrast & colour rendition... vice versa.

    The only AIS lens I owned is the 50 f1.2 AIS 9 blade. This lens is very sharp (resolution wise i think beats the canon 50L by a large margin, a lens that will be in serious trouble once canon exceeds 30 mpx) and should do well on a D800... but then stopping down might be impt to rid of the CA. Copy variation comes into mind when talking about the 50 f1.2 AIS.

    For other AIS lenses i dare not comment...

  3. #23

    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    Quote Originally Posted by surrephoto View Post
    You have answered your own question... 85 f1.4D & 50 f1.4D cannot even resolve properly for a 12 mpx crop camera in my standards.
    Your standards is very very high!

  4. #24

    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    Quote Originally Posted by double_a View Post
    Your standards is very very high!
    Everything is about your acceptance range. Sometimes I lower my standards when the lens is good in other aspects. An old friend told me it is about the character of the lens... I've come to understand this 2 years later.

    At the end of the day proper sharpening technique can bring rescue sufficient detail (at expense of other things). But what is the point of using a upcoming 36 mpx camera possibly the E version for extreme detail when you are not using the very best lenses. Not everyone can afford to stop down their apertures.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    Quote Originally Posted by kentwong81 View Post
    So many worries and restrictions.
    There is still a place for the fantastic D700.
    Agree. Really love the D700. It's the camera that made me give up film & never look back. On the D800, I'm actually more interested in the video but it may not be enough to move me to change. The increased mpx is great & the pictures I seen so far are fantastic but can almost buy 2 preowned D700 for the price. Perhaps its better to invest in some more glass
    Last edited by s1221ljc; 12th February 2012 at 11:23 AM.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    Quote Originally Posted by surrephoto View Post
    You have answered your own question... 85 f1.4D & 50 f1.4D cannot even resolve properly for a 12 mpx crop camera in my standards.

    On the D300S it is compulsory for me to stop down to f2 for the case of the 85 f1.4D. This is not autofocus issue. Depth is plenty at crop factor shooting distances.

    For the case of 50 f1.4D it is more of the horrendous CA for most copies (some of the made in japan ones seem to perform better). There is still sharpness within the heavy CA.
    Cameras not good enough, lens not good enough. I think Nikon is not for you. Your standards are too high. Maybe you should go for the Leica S2, just came across the review in CS. Nothing beats that.
    Last edited by s1221ljc; 12th February 2012 at 11:30 AM.

  7. #27
    Senior Member UncleFai's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by s1221ljc

    Cameras not good enough, lens not good enough. I think Nikon is not for you. Your standards are too high. Maybe you should go for the Leica S2, just came across the review in CS. Nothing beats that.
    In that case, price not good enough.... Also money no enough...

  8. #28

    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleFai View Post
    In that case, price not good enough.... Also money no enough...
    Then I suggest go play play with XMM, dont take photo. More pleasure, less pain, more fun, less complain. As I've said before, dont know what so great about the photos one's taking that these cameras & lens are always not good enough for some people If I get to see those photos, maybe I will complain so poor quality, no standard, nickpick & criticise this no good, that not good enough for me, like I am so smart & of soooo very high standard Professionals I know will just manage & work round those problems & imperfections.
    Last edited by s1221ljc; 12th February 2012 at 02:14 PM.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    Lens resolution affected by light diffraction. For bigger pixel size like D700, maybe you only see diffraction effect at f22. For smaller pixel size like D800, you will start to see diffraction effect at larger aperture such as f11. This is the only thing I expect, as it is basically limited by physics. The next thing is the sensitivity to motion blur will increase.

    If you need to stop down to f2 to use your 85 f1.4D even on a cropped sensor, why not downgrade to 85f1.8 or change system?
    I believe there are a lot of users satisfied with their performance so far on any of existing Nikon camera, I am one of them..

    Quote Originally Posted by surrephoto View Post
    You have answered your own question... 85 f1.4D & 50 f1.4D cannot even resolve properly for a 12 mpx crop camera in my standards.

    On the D300S it is compulsory for me to stop down to f2 for the case of the 85 f1.4D. This is not autofocus issue. Depth is plenty at crop factor shooting distances.

    For the case of 50 f1.4D it is more of the horrendous CA for most copies (some of the made in japan ones seem to perform better). There is still sharpness within the heavy CA.
    Last edited by blackman; 12th February 2012 at 11:19 PM.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    Quote Originally Posted by s1221ljc View Post
    Cameras not good enough, lens not good enough. I think Nikon is not for you. Your standards are too high. Maybe you should go for the Leica S2, just came across the review in CS. Nothing beats that.
    Quote Originally Posted by UncleFai View Post
    In that case, price not good enough.... Also money no enough...
    It's another system to suit another purpose. Money aside, what I need is mainly speed, not pixel count.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackman View Post
    Lens resolution affected by light diffraction. For bigger pixel size like D700, maybe you only see diffraction effect at f22. For smaller pixel size like D800, you will start to see diffraction effect at larger aperture such as f11. This is the only thing I expect, as it is basically limited by physics. The next thing is the sensitivity to motion blur will increase.

    If you need to stop down to f2 to use your 85 f1.4D even on a cropped sensor, why not downgrade to 85f1.8 or change system?
    I believe there are a lot of users satisfied with their performance so far on any of existing Nikon camera, I am one of them..
    It is all about user acceptance. You will notice some photographers refuse to use prime lenses wide open and insist that optimal sharpness needs to be obtain by stopping down. Fortunately I'm one who gives chances to lenses to perform at f1.4. Indeed the 85 f1.8D is an impressive lens wide open.

    Btw being satisfied now about your nikon system/lenses has nothing to do with being satisfied with the full 36 mpx of D800. Alot more flaws will be revealed.

    Quote Originally Posted by s1221ljc View Post
    Then I suggest go play play with XMM, dont take photo. More pleasure, less pain, more fun, less complain. As I've said before, dont know what so great about the photos one's taking that these cameras & lens are always not good enough for some people If I get to see those photos, maybe I will complain so poor quality, no standard, nickpick & criticise this no good, that not good enough for me, like I am so smart & of soooo very high standard Professionals I know will just manage & work round those problems & imperfections.
    So which is healthier? Shooting and realizing which lens/cameras are bad or play with XMM? Managing and working around problems is one thing, but a missing or flaw feature is simply missing or flawed. Precisely the point why some professionals use the very best to minimise the need to "manage & work around problems", though I do agree with you 100% this is an indispensible skill to have. 随机应变.

    My comments were not meant to stir up hard feelings in forumers here. The topic of this thread IS "Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?". I'm discussing precisely about this and how come so many people are defensive against the performance and sharpness of nikkor lenses, especially those that already have a weaker MTF performance on paper?

  11. #31
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    we sure have a lot of optical engineers in CS.. LOL.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    Quote Originally Posted by surrephoto View Post
    You have answered your own question... 85 f1.4D & 50 f1.4D cannot even resolve properly for a 12 mpx crop camera in my standards.

    On the D300S it is compulsory for me to stop down to f2 for the case of the 85 f1.4D. This is not autofocus issue. Depth is plenty at crop factor shooting distances.

    For the case of 50 f1.4D it is more of the horrendous CA for most copies (some of the made in japan ones seem to perform better). There is still sharpness within the heavy CA.
    My my, your standard is higher than all, let me state that again, ALL, photographers, professional, amateur, published, backyard, magazine, e-magazine, website, my brother-in-law, absolutely everyone, that I know that have wielded a camera, Nikon or Canon, Pentax or Olympus, Minolta or Sony. My hats off to you! Master sifu.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    I am just wondering... Nikon go launch this simi D800/D800e.... but so far never hear they launch any new "compatible" lenses to pair with it...... and their current lenses "not up to standard".... hmmm..... you think the engineer, sales and marketing, R&D all need to drag out and shot??? Maybe the CEO need to step down cause they launch a body and self pawned themselves.... hmmm......

  14. #34

    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    Think Surrephoto is really trying to play devil's advocate based on available information. Now that the specs of the camera are official and can be matched to the MTF charts we can theoretically predict how they will resolve on a 36MP sensor - for discussion's sake.

    Probably not worth it to start selling our D-lenses or D700s/D3s etc until the D800 has seen some real world imaging by people like you and I.
    Nikonian since 2003
    F55 | D700

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    Quote Originally Posted by N-user View Post
    I am just wondering... Nikon go launch this simi D800/D800e.... but so far never hear they launch any new "compatible" lenses to pair with it...... and their current lenses "not up to standard".... hmmm..... you think the engineer, sales and marketing, R&D all need to drag out and shot??? Maybe the CEO need to step down cause they launch a body and self pawned themselves.... hmmm......
    HDSLR without HD lenses...

    I am certain Nikon had already spare a thought on that. Maybe we just need to wait a little more longer till more reviews and feedbacks to surface.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    Quote Originally Posted by Entity View Post
    Think Surrephoto is really trying to play devil's advocate based on available information. Now that the specs of the camera are official and can be matched to the MTF charts we can theoretically predict how they will resolve on a 36MP sensor - for discussion's sake.

    Probably not worth it to start selling our D-lenses or D700s/D3s etc until the D800 has seen some real world imaging by people like you and I.
    Hi Entity, thank you for pinpoint these facts. Appreciate it.

    Actually, we can already use D7000 as a starting point to gauge the centre performance of current lenses due to the similar pixel density.

    Infact I am more worried about CA than resolution which becomes startling clear at 100% when you have alot of mpx.

    That said, there is only a 33% increase in pixel density from DX format 12 mpx - 16 mpx... so i'd predict that if you can accept the perform of whatever lens you use on a D300, you'll probably be able to accept it on the D7000 or D800, for the D800 minus the extreme borders.


    Though this will not be a case for a user who is used to seeing 1 to 1 pixel size at 12 mpx FX format... the increase of density will be a staggering 200%.

    In fact there is more to worry about. Can that upgraded Advanced Multi-cam 3500 FX AF system resolve depth well enough for subjects at 36 mpx?

    A convenient excuse for camera manufacturers is to blame everything on user error and the number of megapixels. 36 mpx is a convenient number to blame on... hehe, no one else has this amount of mpx on an FX camera yet! With the amount of problems Nikon is currently having with the newer prime lenses (if uncertain pls check out dpreview & digitalloyd or even mr ken rockwell about the 35mm f1.4G, 24mm f1.4G & 85mm f1.4G)... I'd have to say that either that is an overhaul of AF algorithms in the D4/D800... or we are in for serious trouble. It happened to canon and I pray it is not going to happen to Nikon. I jump shipped here for so-called legendary Nikon AF, but since last year, I realized how this far this far-fetched tale has gone.
    Please also take me as a critic who criticizes for the sake of improvement and good of all. What's the point of being defensive if you sense something is wrong? Learn from canon user's and their 1D3 saga. Long live Nikon & Nikkor.
    Last edited by surrephoto; 13th February 2012 at 11:30 PM.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    People this is not a real discussion that is taking place, rather it is just hear say, opinions, assumptions based on what ? How many are having day jobs in optics design. The biggest point is it is all theoretical as none of the people talking have a D800 to test. So far the only physical evidence where have to start from are the sample jpgs. A lot of sweeping statements are being made without any supporting facts nor figures which at the end of the day - are just opinions.

    No point trying to own this corner or that corner as there is no fame here nor glory.

    What is happening is just like a gaggle of aunties fighting over the trials and tribulations of the their fav soap opera characters.

    Since when did photographers have perfect equipment to work with. Not in the past most definitely not now. Yet through it all, we have seen icon images created with such flawed tools. So it implies the tools are not the key issues, it comes back to you ability to create. To turn crap into gold you need imagination and creativity not perfectly match camera sensor to lens. Direct application of perfect gear to crap with out imagination and creativity will give you perfectly documented crap.

    So chill out and do your own tests when the bodies come in then happily discuss whatever.

  18. #38
    Senior Member yilishengxian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    Quote Originally Posted by surrephoto View Post
    Hi Entity, thank you for pinpoint these facts. Appreciate it.

    Actually, we can already use D7000 as a starting point to gauge the centre performance of current lenses due to the similar pixel density.

    Infact I am more worried about CA than resolution which becomes startling clear at 100% when you have alot of mpx.

    That said, there is only a 33% increase in pixel density from DX format 12 mpx - 16 mpx... so i'd predict that if you can accept the perform of whatever lens you use on a D300, you'll probably be able to accept it on the D7000 or D800, for the D800 minus the extreme borders.


    Though this will not be a case for a user who is used to seeing 1 to 1 pixel size at 12 mpx FX format... the increase of density will be a staggering 200%.

    In fact there is more to worry about. Can that upgraded Advanced Multi-cam 3500 FX AF system resolve depth well enough for subjects at 36 mpx?

    A convenient excuse for camera manufacturers is to blame everything on user error and the number of megapixels. 36 mpx is a convenient number to blame on... hehe, no one else has this amount of mpx on an FX camera yet! With the amount of problems Nikon is currently having with the newer prime lenses (if uncertain pls check out dpreview & digitalloyd or even mr ken rockwell about the 35mm f1.4G, 24mm f1.4G & 85mm f1.4G)... I'd have to say that either that is an overhaul of AF algorithms in the D4/D800... or we are in for serious trouble. It happened to canon and I pray it is not going to happen to Nikon. I jump shipped here for so-called legendary Nikon AF, but since last year, I realized how this far this far-fetched tale has gone.
    Please also take me as a critic who criticizes for the sake of improvement and good of all. What's the point of being defensive if you sense something is wrong? Learn from canon user's and their 1D3 saga. Long live Nikon & Nikkor.
    U intend to print ur photos large size?
    Every Photo Speaks for its Photographer. 开心就好。
    I wanna be the no.1 GWC !!!

  19. #39

    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    Quote Originally Posted by ellery View Post
    People this is not a real discussion that is taking place, rather it is just hear say, opinions, assumptions based on what ? How many are having day jobs in optics design. The biggest point is it is all theoretical as none of the people talking have a D800 to test. So far the only physical evidence where have to start from are the sample jpgs. A lot of sweeping statements are being made without any supporting facts nor figures which at the end of the day - are just opinions.

    No point trying to own this corner or that corner as there is no fame here nor glory.
    duh... we don't need to be an optics engineers to review how lens perform. We need to be photographers only.

    And we don't need a D800 to tell how it the lens will perform at such pixel density because..... we have the D7000 which has identical pixel density. With D7000 we can tell how the lens perform at the center portion.

    This is not hearsay. I think if one has used the D7000, the comparison is entirely valid.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Will most of Nikon's lenses even make full use of the D800's 36MP capability?

    Quote Originally Posted by yilishengxian View Post
    U intend to print ur photos large size?
    does it matter???

    either way it looks stupid for nikon.

    If he does print to large size, but nikon lens don't keep up with high pixel density it is stupid.

    If he does not print to large size, why in the world does he need the D800 36M?

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