Firstly, I don't alter surroundings, I dont use calls, nor do I feed (I can't cos im vegetarian) or even use flash...In my principle, wildlife takes precedence over photography, i would observe the animal to see any signs of stress, if its relaxed, i can move closer, if its stressed, i would wait till hes relaxed..
eng60232 I think you are stereotyping all bird photographer because of a few whose actions might be a little over, and I dont think its a good way of stereotyping ppl just becos of one issue, its not fair to others..and the way you stereotype is like every shot has been fed, branch broken, calls played, this is what you are stereotyping, which is not true...And you say like bird photographers dont understand birds, then how the hell do we get great shots, you need to understand your subject to get great shots, and not every bird can play call ok..
why I am speaking up for the bird photographers is bcos of the insistence that only we are wrong while stomping photographers is not, and your rude way of making your point...and that bird photographers dont care for the welfare of the wildlife, we DO!!
the way you say makes me think that humans are from outer space and should not touch a single strand of nature, that we dont belong here on earth, pls look back at human history, we started life in the wild, and we use natural resources to survive, cut branches to make shelter etc, humans are PART of Mother Nature, maybe you live in the city too much to remember this fact...animals like deers, elephants, and others 'destroy' habitats too, they help landscape the environment..zoologist had to cut through vegetation to access to the research point, if we move through vegetation, we will be likely to snap one or 2 branches on the way, so what are you trying to get at? Why only blame and discriminate the bird photographers? It seems your anger had blinded you from looking at a bigger picture due to your hatred to the bird photographers, if you are so protective and overly concerned of small habitat alterations, you should not even go to the forest, bcos going into it would have a risk of breaking branches..
Like I had stated in my earlier post, we do it with minimal damage, and when it comes to nesting or animal dens, its a definite NO to change anything, or disturb them, we stay our distance to shoot..
Lastly, what makes you have the say to call them so-called this and that, what makes you think you are the true bird photographer? can I say award winning documentaries and photos are also taken by so called-wildlife photographers too? Cos SOME footages and photos that are shot in the WILD are being set up too?
Last edited by dennisthetiger; 2nd February 2012 at 06:58 PM.
Award winner of Singapore Young Photographer Award 2012
I cannot say that I am a bird photographer... I just like to record the nature using my camera...
I have NEVER do anything to alter nature, break branches and stuff like that... I keep to the boardwalk or wherever was allowed... anyway, I am amaze at people stereotyping all photographers (wildlife and the such) into very very bad light just because one or two don't seemed to follow to the compliant's code of ethnic. Well... it is not that WE would want that compliant to be near and we don't associate with him/she too.
eng60232 ...I take pic of bird too...will like to have one more friend than one more enemy...certainly will not like to be always watching over my back in case someone is shooting me
Whatever we are doing nowaday is killing the world we are living in . Even a Fart is that livestock produce methane , together with other greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide contribute to global warming by acting like a blanket surrounding the whole planet. So are you going to plugged or stomp the livestock a*sh*le?? (sorry just a joking no offence)
My point is for everthing we are doing ,do it with reasonable exceptance ...nothing can be perfect. Everyone one have their own yardstick so let themselve be their own judge , if not the one above ( whoever he is ..hehehe) will judge him , not you or me .
Life is short ...enjoy it
Last edited by strobby; 1st February 2012 at 10:32 AM.
You must have too much grudge with us avian photographers? I wonder how did we offend you.
Why are you trying to distort the sentence? First you say feeding the birds is wrong as they may behave like monkeys that will depend on people on food and attack people for food. Now you say avian photographers going down from the broadwalk to prevent the birds from going into the bushes, I still wondering how does avian photographers going to prevent birds from going into the bushes by going down from the broadwalk. Breaking of branches, well, i do not break branches when i shoot birds. Nice background? you have not wonder how many hours most of us have spend on just to wait for the bird to land on that particular clear spot.
Well, maybe you are right, we are taking photograph of birds not from the wild, but from park, waste land, beach, mangrove walk... etc, these place are not wild enough, all these are man-made.
Since the location of this bird is out, we are worry that poachers will come and trap the bird for monetary gain. This pitta is a rare bird in Singapore and only appear in Mangrove area. There are not many around in Singapore.
The reason we keep the location low as we worry about poachers getting news of it and wants to trap it down. Many times we have seen birds poachers setting up traps to trap white rumped sharmas, oriental white eyes, red whiskered bulbuls after their locations has been made known to others, do you know we people nearly get into fights with these poachers when we confront them, do you know how upset are we when we see nesting failed after these nest are made known to other photographers?
The reason why we invest heavily on good long lens and pro camera body is not to show off, it is to get that particular shot where the bird landed on a clean branch with a clear background for this just 1-2 sec moments inside forested area, if the bird stay longer on that particular we want, it would be a bonus for us, we need our gears to react as fast we want, only these 500mm prime and 600mm prime with pro body can do it but sometimes they are not fast enough. If we miss the moment, we are back into the waiting game. This waiting can be for hours, most of us even come back to the same place days after days just to get our particular shot.
You only get to know us from thread but you have not met any of us personally on the field and yet you made us a negative comment on us just by reading all this. When I just started birding, i am glad i got seniors like Harlequin to guide me along.
If by general feelings that Bird photography is encroachment into wildlife environment, then Singapore (or any other country) should still be a Virgin forested Island. No cars , no humans nor any buildings etc. heck, we wont even be here to argue about this. How wonderful would that be.
The below statements would be true if all the accusation are true. (by no means do I intend to target any particular person/s.)
1. Portrait photography uses studio flashes so the models should by now be all blinded since their flashes are many times more powerful that the average speedlight.
2. Macro photographers is the closest to the subject and 90% of them uses flashes. Result would by now all insects and bugs would have long gone into hiding or moved away from Singapore. Most of them would also have been blind if not fried by the flashes.
3. Singapore would not have anymore wild birds because Singapore is simply too noisy and birds is believed to be stressed by calls and pishing. And by now the Mangrove pitta should either have gone deeper into the forest or dead.
I don’t know how many of you have lived in a forest before without any modern facilities but I was fortunate to had spent about 13 years in my Grand dad estate. I have deers, wild ducks and many kind of birds in my backyard. These animals are not afraid of us because they treated us as part of the eco system. I have pets tortoise, fishes, squirrels, dogs and birds. Nope, they do not live in cages or tanks. They are living in their own natural environment. When we plough the fields, birds came to pick up the worms right beside us. Wild boars and deers are often seen at the edge of the field. This can only happen if we do not pose ant kind of immediate danger to them.
Sadly I think we hardly have this kind of environment anymore. The concrete jungles had taken over. Kids nowadays grew up in Virtual world. They simply believes in whatever they sees on the surface. I still remember the day my Nephew drew a chicken in preschool. Its without feather just like the one we see in the supermarket. Cant blame him for he had never seen a real chicken before that and the only ones he saw were those in the chiller. Likewise in this particular case, undigested, the intend was good till the approach. Was there any scientific studies done on wild bird saying that pishing or playing bird calls actually harmed the bird? At what stage? The most critical stage would be during the nesting period to my limited knowledge.
And if all non birders and non bird photographer would stay clear from us Bird photographers when we are at work we will be more than happy. Reason is because one must understand the subject 1st before getting the photo. How many times we had “suck thumb” because someone passes by or talked too loudly when we are shooting. We could be waiting for hours only to be spoilt at the crucial moment. Of course havings said all these, we are also happy to make more friends and learn from each other. For the last 1-2 years, Birders and Bird photographers had been learning a lot from each other through sharing information. Sometimes a particular species of birds looks so much similar but with photos, birders are able to differentiate them. Take the Mangrove Pitta and the Blue-winged pitta for example. There is only a slight different between them. Its easy to miss and tick the wrong bird.
Lets us all enjoy our passion and along the way makes more friends and learn more. Remember, our major enemy at present are the poachers. They are the real killers of Birds. Many are lurking in forums and some even pretend to be birders or bird photographers.
Let me refer you to the following article of a photo contest winner who has made it to the cover of National Wildlife magazine,
How I Made the Cover of "National Wildlife" - National Wildlife Federation
Why don't you tell him that it a disgrace to use artificial feeder, elaborate camera setup with FLASH to lure birds for his winning shot!
I mean, as long as there are man in the area, it is consider intruding in many instances, be it that you are bird photographer or observer or if you break branches... feed birds etc. If you want an area that are truely natural, then keep people out and away... we know that is not going to happen, right?
Next... many wildlife photographers, be it bird photographers or animal photographers, actually did build some sort of Hide, whereby they could be inside and they interact with the animals from that area and so they could get photos of these creatures in the creatures' most natural habitate... so... if you are such a nature lover, do you think that is wrong... because that is a manmade structure designed to 'deceive' the animals into thinking that you are not there?
if you had not read my post no.43, i repost for you according on what you said on post no.48
.......the way you say makes me think that humans are from outer space and should not touch a single strand of nature, that we dont belong here on earth, pls look back at human history, we started life in the wild, and we use natural resources to survive, cut branches to make shelter etc, humans are PART of Mother Nature, maybe you live in the city too much to remember this fact...animals like deers, elephants, and others 'destroy' habitats too, they help landscape the environment..zoologist had to cut through vegetation to access to the research point, if we move through vegetation, we will be likely to snap one or 2 branches on the way, so what are you trying to get at? Why only blame and discriminate the bird photographers? It seems your anger had blinded you from looking at a bigger picture due to your hatred to the bird photographers, if you are so protective and overly concerned of small habitat alterations, you should not even go to the forest, bcos going into it would have a risk of breaking branches.....
go and scold the elephants for trampling on branches cos they are too big, and if your excuse is elephant is part of nature and humans are not, you clearly need to go back to school
go scold the zoologist for cutting much more branches than the bird photographers do to move into dense jungle or setting up base camp in mother nature's turf...if you can't stand bird photographers breaking branches, so you can accept zoologists removing branches to access?
go scold the award winning photographer for not taking pictures in the wild or setting props to get his shot, and setting up feeder
go complain to SAF for over exploiting the jungle with explosive and gun fire...disturbing the wildlife non stop...go!
If you are still not digesting, digest now, cos if not its bad for your stomach..
where are the other 2 guys, why aren't they explaining their actions on the personal attack on stomping the photographers, and just tackling the issue, since you dare to stomp, you should dare to speak up on your actions, we photographers had given all our explanations....
Last edited by dennisthetiger; 2nd February 2012 at 06:58 PM.
Award winner of Singapore Young Photographer Award 2012
Many people have already given their point of views and share how wildlife photography is all about.
Please do not label wildlife photographers as irresponsible people. There far more worst people out there, i.e. POACHERS !!
It looks like an explanation or a simple apology should be in place to help clear the air. Please be responsible for your own actions/words. And do not just post photographs of photographer's faces and label them straight out. There are far more easier and better ways to deal with the problem. Of course in a cordial way.
The birding community within Singapore is a very small one and with the size of Singapore, we definitely will bump into each other. Surely we want to be happy birding with each other than to "slaughter" and "hammer" each other out. Right ?
Please please for whatever sake, in future, do not open another much bigger Pandora's box, because the only thing remaining in the box is a creature called Hope.
Come on let's admit guys. To certain extend, we may be doing "foolish things" without realizing that we are doing the wrong thing. Just so because NatGeo photographers can have their setup in the wild, it does not mean that there are doing the right thing. Also I dare to admit even for myself to a certain extend will do some of those "foolish" things just to get the picture I want of course not spraying paints etc...I mean breaking some branches as I move forward because it is inevitable sometimes. If not because of my friends constant reminding in the background, I would not have came to realize that I am indeed destroying nature. I have since grow to be more "careful" if I may use the word to approach nature not just birds. I like what Strobby said, keep the damage to the MINIMUM and I guess you know what it means. Please again, just because someone is doing it, it doesn't meant that it is RIGHT.
We are all adults and I believe we should know what is right vs wrong and what is good for the nature vs wrong. If all folks start having the thoughts that since he does it, hence I can do it too, then the world will end very soon. So let's do our part to save nature, without trees where comes the insects, without insects where comes the birds. Just ask yourself that question.
Back to the origin, why do you think those people are on the mangroves instead on the boardwalk? Why do you think the pitta went in further into the mangroves in the first place? You have the answers, I don't need to tell you. I was there that day, I saw what had happened. Although in my heart I was against it, but I never say anything. BTW - I don't believe birds photographers have not broken any single branches or step on leaves etc whether deliberately or not. If there is one, than he is not a bird photographer for sure.
Lastly, we should respect each other on the ground. Don't think because you have bigger lenses or your skills/knowledge are better or you are some president in a photography club, the ground and people are at your command. I really HATE these people!
Last edited by Jet Lim; 1st February 2012 at 11:38 PM.
And I am truly surprise for the understanding of destroying of the nature that are limited only to breaking of branches. I mean nature is much bigger than that... And as someone had pointed out, the breaking of branches by us photographer means destroying of nature... what about the breaking of branches by animals (say elephant?) Are that not destroying of an environment too?
Anyway, people built Hides in the nature so they could better observe the wildlife as it is and that had the least damage to the environment, but that is a man made structure, are that consider destruction of nature too?
Of course I am not disputing that those people who walked into the mangroves are wrong... well... that clearly is a violation... and not just for the breaking of everyone's precious branches, but also for the culprits' own safety... I mean, I saw snakes in those mangroves before... and by walking into that area, might open them out for the snakes to attack. And I truly hope that those photographers know what they are doing... and be safe.
Plus finally... why do you think that the pitta who went deeper into the mangrove was because it was scared or was avoiding the photographers? It might be that, there are food deeper in too. There are many reason why the pitta moves in and not necessary that it is afraid, unless there are more evident of that... how to you tell?
If by now you still don't understand what I am trying to say so be it.
And I understand what you are trying to say... your main aim is to lecture people, not to monkey see monkey do. And what I am deriving is, by just being there, be it breaking of branches, building hide so as to observe the wildlife better and closer, is all disrupting of nature. And even the building of walkboards in the park is already disrupting of nature. So... to ensure that there are no more disruption, keep humans out of the park... but we know that ain't going to happen.
Plus... by breaking a few branches... would actually cause so much stress to the birds? Don't underestimate nature. If it was that weak, it would had long ago been destroy.
I mean, yes if there are a couple of millions of people breaking a few branches each for a couple of days, the damage will be tremendous... but look at it this way... how many wildlife photographers are there in our community? How many actually go all out and into the mangrove? Did anyone actually see huge number of broken branches and trees that are a result of random breaking by careless wildlife photographers?
Actually like what so many had already pointed out, we photographers are already minimizing the disruption of nature... what all of you should be pissed off is not us... but those jerks that toss their freaking thrash into the mangroves... now that is something that should be brought out into the light.
So if YOU do not yet understand what everyone of us is trying to bring out, then so be it.
Last edited by rhino123; 2nd February 2012 at 08:55 AM.
I think... This pitta should not appear in the 1st place.. Causing so much unhappiness.
Last edited by Netbaby; 2nd February 2012 at 09:41 AM.
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It seems that the original blogger thinks that pishing and call playback only has negative consequences. Yet, let me cite Sibley's account here where the benefits are also even handedly discussed.
The Proper Use of Playback in Birding « Sibley Guides
Despite many attempts by others to ask him to remove photos of the people involved, apparently he is unmoved. I don't know what is the greater point that is being made? Is it that people whose ideas and methods you disagree with is fair game for ridicule? If it doesn't work, escalate further? If nature lovers continue to employ this tactic, then how much nearer are we from the PETA's and animal rights activist of the western world, who as we already know are turning on their attention to biologists and science itself.
Budak, the threadstarter seems reasonable enough, but as of today, seem silent about the tactics being used. It is of course his right to do so, but a pity nonetheless IMO.
I know the two gentlemen that is being STOMPed. After spending a lifetime contributing to society betterment, they can at last enjoy some free time taking pictures of colourful feathers. Fine gentlemen, but perhaps not 'nature lovers'. It is a pity that it is a negative term these days in some circles. Frankly if I were in their position, I would say all talk about pishing and call playback by you is utterly one-sided and tell you that you need to read up more and be more balanced, and you probably will engage your opinion about my opinion. But we are all not built the same way and not everyone is articulate and not everyone wants to debate much when a hot rare bird is around, especially with unfamiliar faces with unknown motives.
Whatever the reason, all I can say is that I can vouch for their character. And all I ask that their pictures be removed. You want a discourse on birding ethics, we can of course have one. But a civil discourse can only happen when inflammatory distractions are out of the way. At this point, it seems hopeless in this thread IMO. Minds have been closed, lines have been drawn. A missed opportunity.
Let me close this very long message by quoting Sibley: As in all things related to birds, there is a lot that is unknown about their response to playback. More research on the effects of playback, including varied species with different social systems, would be very helpful. In the meantime, being courteous and respectful to the birds and to fellow birders should avoid most of the potential conflicts and allow us to continue to enjoy birding with minimal impact on the birds.
I am in disagreement with your statement "Plus... by breaking a few branches... would actually cause so much stress to the birds? Don't underestimate nature. If it was that weak, it would had long ago been destroy." This is not about just the bird. Factually there are lesser trees in the world right now! We human beings including myself has been a part in this. Also your statement MAY misled others and to a certain extend encouraging more people to start breaking a few branches here and there since mother nature is so strong, breaking a few branches (no worries it will grow back). I don't think this is the kind of behavior that I would like to encourage.
Next you quoted --> ".. your main aim is to lecture people, not to monkey see monkey do" --> Hello I am not here to lecture anyone nor do I have the right to do that!
I am not here to make enemies brother, so please maintain your cool and be neutral in your interpretations. Don't start stuffing words into people's mouth like a rhino bashing into the bushes. You are free to voice your opinions and I respect your views.
Lastly, you quoted --> "So if YOU do not yet understand what everyone of us is trying to bring out, then so be it". Hey hey hey don't have to aggregate the matter in your writing using "YOU" in capital letter. I am not sure if this could be treated as personal attack - Moderators, your call. It is also not professional to use the same words that I had already used back on the same person - This is "lecture". Again I am not here to make enemies, but please watch your words in writing and maintain a neutral perspective. Let's be more careful in writing and I do respect your views!
Thank you and have a nice day sir.
Last edited by Jet Lim; 2nd February 2012 at 08:01 PM.