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Thread: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by eng60232

    We should appluad the courage and righteousness of the TS for telling off the photographers and also showing these pictures.. As some of these birders even bring worms to entice the birds out.. I have forwarded the link to the blog to Nparks so that the relevant authorities can also look into this matter..
    May I know why using worms are wrong? The photographers just want to have better photos of the birds.

    I have been to USA before. The Americans have feeders hanging in their gardens to feed the wild birds. Even their supermarkets sell feeds for wild animals and birds.


    Cheers.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    My view is very simple, regardless of whether we are photographers, or biologist or scientist whatever, its does not matter, we all at some point would have created disturbance to nature...

    photographers - go into habitat, play calls, feed, set up perch etc..do note even national geographic photographers do this to get their winnings shots too

    Scientist and biologist - go into habitat, collect samples, tranquilize, relocate, radio collar or tag or chip animals to track movement (animals get stressed out by these things too even more than photographers entering their comfort zone)

    In the end who is at fault? when we do research or study, we all have to interfere nature at some point, if not how would we have understand so much, and all the photographs taken, if no photographs are taken would scientist even be able to study animals like appearance, ID etc..

    Stomping the photographers is not a good thing to do and you might not know some of them have great knowledge and experience in nature and they know what they are doing...you might even pick up good info from them as they spend much of their time shooting and observing birds..

    But of course I would say we minimize as much disturbance to the animals as we can and not stress them too much
    Last edited by dennisthetiger; 29th January 2012 at 12:04 AM.
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  3. #23

    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    Quote Originally Posted by Reno View Post
    May I know why using worms are wrong? The photographers just want to have better photos of the birds.

    I have been to USA before. The Americans have feeders hanging in their gardens to feed the wild birds. Even their supermarkets sell feeds for wild animals and birds.


    Cheers.
    If the Americans do it, it does not mean they are right!! If you feed the wild animals, they may get reliant on humans for food and not source for their own food... Then slowly they will become like the monkeys at Lower Pierce Reservoir and attack humans for food..

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by eng60232

    If the Americans do it, it does not mean they are right!! If you feed the wild animals, they may get reliant on humans for food and not source for their own food... Then slowly they will become like the monkeys at Lower Pierce Reservoir and attack humans for food..
    Then I would say you are wrong. We are talking about birds, not monkeys. If feeding birds with worms would make the birds stay, our place would be full of colorful migrants birds.I would not want to comment more on this issue.

    Anyway. I agree with what Dennis, Jcho and Harlequin said. And we should worry more about bird poachers instead.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    Adding on...

    If you are a true nature lover and want to protect the birds, why give away the location??!! You among the rest, the TRUE nature lover, should have known better!! There are those who had been there and shot the pitta, even me, but we only kept to our circle of friends...

    I even posted my shots of the pitta here on CS, but I never reveal the location, and the number of ppl who know is at a controlled rate..

    Now that you revealed the location, you will see even more ppl there trying to shoot the pitta, even more stress for the bird, so should we say, budak & g33k5p34k are the guilty ones of attracting more attention to ppl coming down to shoot? So we can assumed that you are also a so-called nature lover? Cos you dont even know the basic thing of keeping locations discreet esp posting on threads that would attract much much more attention than just birders circulating among their own circle? Even an old and less educated photographer knows how to keep locations of rare birds discreetly...
    Last edited by dennisthetiger; 29th January 2012 at 01:18 AM.
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  6. #26
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    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    Quote Originally Posted by dennisthetiger View Post
    Adding on...

    If you are a true nature lover and want to protect the birds, why give away the location??!! You among the rest, the TRUE nature lover, should have known better!! There are those who had been there and shot the pitta, even me, but we only kept to our circle of friends...

    I even posted my shots of the pitta here on CS, but I never reveal the location, and the number of ppl who know is at a controlled rate..

    Now that you revealed the location, you will see even more ppl there trying to shoot the pitta, even more stress for the bird, so should we say, budak & g33k5p34k are the guilty ones of attracting more attention to ppl coming down to shoot? So we can assumed that you are also a so-called nature lover? Cos you dont even know the basic thing of keeping locations discreet esp posting on threads that would much much more attention than just birders circulating among their own circle?
    I fully support Dennis on this.

    Blogs and threads like these with locations revealed mean that you have already given away the location to the public eyes. Its the circle of trust that most bird photographers adhere to, which you can see they never reveal locations publicly.

    The guilty ones are the ones who publicly made known these information, no need to say who they are as of now.

    Move on with your life and don't hide behind that large computer screen. Go do something meaningful for society, instead of blabbering on the internet about how great a nature lover one is.
    http://www.avianwatchasia.org for some real bird photos
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  7. #27

    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    Gentle reminder: Clubsnap members are requested to adhere to the ABA Principles of Birding Ethics, as follows;

    Everyone who enjoys birds and birding must always respect wildlife, its environment, and the rights of others.
    In any conflict of interest between birds and birders, the welfare of the birds and their environment comes first.

    CODE OF BIRDING ETHICS

    1. Promote the welfare of birds and their environment.

    1(a) Support the protection of important bird habitat.

    1(b) To avoid stressing birds or exposing them to danger,
    exercise restraint and caution during observation,
    photography, sound recording, or filming.
    Limit the use of recordings and other methods of attracting
    birds, and never use such methods in heavily birded areas
    or for attracting any species that is Threatened, Endangered,
    or of Special Concern, or is rare in your local area.
    Keep well back from nests and nesting colonies, roosts,
    display areas, and important feeding sites. In such sensitive
    areas, if there is a need for extended observation,
    photography, filming, or recording, try to use a blind or
    hide, and take advantage of natural cover.
    Use artificial light sparingly for filming or photography,
    especially for close-ups.

    1(c) Before advertising the presence of a rare bird, evaluate the
    potential for disturbance to the bird, its surroundings, and
    other people in the area, and proceed only if access can be
    controlled, disturbance can be minimized, and permission
    has been obtained from private land-owners. The sites of
    rare nesting birds should be divulged only to the proper
    conservation authorities.

    1(d) Stay on roads, trails, and paths where they exist; otherwise
    keep habitat disturbance to a minimum.

    2. Respect the law and the rights of others.

    2(a) Do not enter private property without the owner’s explicit
    permission.

    2(b) Follow all laws, rules, and regulations governing use of
    roads and public areas, both at home and abroad.

    2(c) Practice common courtesy in contacts with other people.
    Your exemplary behavior will generate goodwill with
    birders and non-birders alike.

    3. Ensure that feeders, nest structures, and other artificial
    bird environments are safe.

    3(a) Keep dispensers, water, and food clean and free of decay or
    disease. It is important to feed birds continually during
    harsh weather.

    3(b) Maintain and clean nest structures regularly.

    3(c) If you are attracting birds to an area, ensure the birds are
    not exposed to predation from cats and other domestic
    animals, or dangers posed by artificial hazards.

    4. Group birding, whether organized or impromptu,
    requires special care.
    Each individual in the group, in addition to the obligations
    spelled out in Items #1 and #2, has responsibilities as a
    Group Member.

    4(a) Respect the interests, rights, and skills of fellow birders, as
    well as those of people participating in other legitimate
    outdoor activities. Freely share your knowledge and
    experience, except where code 1(c) applies. Be especially
    helpful to beginning birders.

    4(b) If you witness unethical birding behavior, assess the
    situation and intervene if you think it prudent. When
    interceding, inform the person(s) of the inappropriate
    action and attempt, within reason, to have it stopped. If
    the behavior continues, document it and notify appropriate
    individuals or organizations.

    Group Leader Responsibilities [amateur and professional
    trips and tours].

    4(c) Be an exemplary ethical role model for the group. Teach
    through word and example.

    4(d) Keep groups to a size that limits impact on the
    environment and does not interfere with others using the
    same area.

    4(e) Ensure everyone in the group knows of and practices this
    code.

    4(f) Learn and inform the group of any special circumstances
    applicable to the areas being visited (e.g., no tape
    recorders allowed).

    4(g) Acknowledge that professional tour companies bear a
    special responsibility to place the welfare of birds and the
    benefits of public knowledge ahead of the company’s
    commercial interests. Ideally, leaders should keep track of
    tour sightings, document unusual occurrences, and submit
    records to appropriate organizations.
    Last edited by zaren; 29th January 2012 at 09:27 AM.
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    Do we stuck a mineral water bottle into the woodpecker nest ?
    NO !!!!
    Do we stray paint on the woodpecker nest hole ?
    No,!!!!
    all those things were done by a so-called "True Nature Lover" ???
    -and we birders don't do that !!!!!
    If u guys still remember the laced woodpecker nesting in PRP some time back !!!!!

  9. #29

    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    I have exactly the same feeling as Meerkat. TrueNatureLover in the blog on TS first post I strongly believe is the same one who did the atrocities on the woodpecker. The TS and g33k5p34k being his associates cannot be as angelic as they made themselves up to be. I may be wrong but my gut feeling is very strong as there are few if any that goes by that name. Ha ha big joke.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    oh dear, you guys are so good at trying to detract from the issue. I have no idea who this TrueNatureLover is, though if he is the same person who allegedly damaged a woodpecker's nest, I think he's not doing right.

    As for the bird's location, I think a good case can be made that this is needed to highlight the practice of excessive pishing and habitat encroachment in the park. The park is already a place receiving heavy human traffic (fishing, photography, leisure, cycling etc) and the mangrove section features a boardwalk that the public is not supposed to go down from. Thus, I think it's reasonable to conclude that as long as people don't go down, the bird is able to carry out its activities (feeding, finding mates etc) quite normally, even when there are many people walking around. Even a large group of photographers or birdwatchers (or any other people) gathered at one spot shouldn't be a problem either, if they keep to the boardwalk. What was the issue, however, is that those who were observing incessantly pishing by the blogger and those who defend them appear to suggest that such disturbances of the bird's routines can be safely left to the subjective opinions of any photographer, which is in effect saying there are no limits or rules. I think I am being as flexible as these guys are, in accepting that overseas or even local guidelines are not ironclad, and neither do I think a little pishing or flashing is a problem. But it seems any suggestion that people consider if what they are doing is detrimental to their subjects only meets a wall of indignance. But I suppose it can't be helped; 'lao-jiaos', after all, can hardly be expected to change their ways.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    Even after unwillingly giving the benefit of the doubt for the case of the TrueNatureLover, you are still too partial in your opinion regarding the personal attack on the 2 photographers by g33k5p43k. Just as venturing into the mangrove area is frowned upon by certain people as disturbing the bird routine and habitat, exposing the identity of the photographers is intruding into the lives of human beings. Are human subjects not as important as bird subject? Although you are young (budak (kid), g33k5p34k (biology student)) you write with authority and even think that the experienced older ones are stubborn and inflexible. This is indeed sad.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    Ok my views: I can understand what budak is trying to tell us just that the way of conveying his message isn't that appropriate. I guess he is being a little emotional. I think if birders are just walking around non-restricted areas and shoot photos upon seeing a bird is great but to do something intentional of misleading the wildlife isn't that nice IMHO.

    Ya some ppl are right that we are already trespassing the wildlife homes by building paths etc but that doesn't give us the excuse to continue to disturb nature to a significant extent.

    I think the key thing is : act in moderation and try to minimise the damage we are doing. At the end of the day I hope all of us shoot photos of wildlife because we love them and not simply because we want to capture them and post online for ppl to praise us and boost our own ego.

    If is in some wild forest then perhaps there is no 'rule' on what should and should not be done in attracting birds. However majority of the places people go in Singapore are under Nparks so they do have certain 'rules' on what should and should not be done...it is more of whether they actually go about actively warning people of their 'misbehaviour' or not.

    As much as we should not have personal attacks, I think budak's thread actually serve as a reminder to all of us to be more aware of our actions and be considerate to things around us.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    Quote Originally Posted by eng60232 View Post
    We should appluad the courage and righteousness of the TS for telling off the photographers and also showing these pictures.. As some of these birders even bring worms to entice the birds out.. I have forwarded the link to the blog to Nparks so that the relevant authorities can also look into this matter..
    Same I applaud them too, however they are not train to handle the general public; I would suggest they would pick up some courses like how to managed a angry customer or try work part time in MacDonald it helps. I actually started there, when I am 14 years old.

    How "G33xxxxx" approached those photographers are also very important; example body language; tone of this voice etc.

    Those guys has long lens as mentioned in "G33xxxxx" blog; they are not like "Marco Lens" when you can still focus within 5cm; the focusing distance is 5m don't think they could get near the bird. So what is really the harm? Why need to post the photographers in his blog? I read it as some very personal attack. Try to post their photos here? (I am sure our Mod will deleted them right away)

    Here some link which I believe would help them in the field better. I am a fan of him too. Good stuff I will share, but rare birds and nesting I won't.

    UP! Your Service €“ Uplifting Service Culture and Service Performance Improvement for Sustainable Competitive Advantage
    Last edited by jcho; 30th January 2012 at 09:42 PM.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    Yes the cows have not come home yet! Maybe the cows decided to take another walk...well. I feel that each contributor here has their valid points one way or another. Bottom line is we are here in this debate because "ALL" have a heart for nature because we are concern. The originator of this thread may have articulated the matter using a wrong approach such as sharing the location to the public but I feel that his original intention is a good one to begin with. I am not sure about you but I do share locations with my close friends. At times I also share the general park location in my postings too but those are not the exact locations. I believe so long as sharing of exact location is not disclosed to the public, it should be fine to certain extend of course with the trust of your friends too.

    Again as I've mentioned earlier, the boardwalk are meant for us to walk on, if it weren't there in the first place, then I believe we could walk anyway we want because it would have been treated as a "wild" place. Bearing also in mind that undesirable behaviors to get the pictures "no matter what" or doings without considerations for nature and other photographers are not welcome! Needless to say, Harlequin had already show a few examples earlier.

    We all have something to learn from this thread. Keep the healthy discussion going since the cows are not home yet!
    Last edited by Jet Lim; 30th January 2012 at 10:34 PM.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    Both birders and bird photographers share one common thing : Birds !

    Birders love to twitch so are bird photographers.

    Birders use binoculars and scopes to view images of birds out in the wild. But those images will only remain in each person's memory. You cannot share it with your children, grandchildren and future generations.

    Bird photographers ( a rare breed of photographers with specialized skills and equipment ) capture images of birds in the wild so that they can share the beautiful images of such beauties available to us before we as human invade too much into Mother Nature's turf. The images captured can be shared with many many generations and can serve as an educational tool too !

    The guidelines are there to remind everyone (birders and bird photographers) on their actions in the wild. It is not a hard set rule that once a rule has been broken, it is against the law. There is no such legalities available anywhere in the world (if i'm not wrong as I'm not a legal person) .

    If one has been to overseas forests to twitch/birding, you can see many forms of birding/bird photography practices.

    Do you really want to enforce such hard rules too as the so-called nature police ? And spoils everyone's fun of enjoying the Great Mother Nature ? Building boardwalks and making treks are already invading into Mother Nature.

    Have the so-called Nature Police go and tell those little childrens/adults visiting these parks to keep quiet so that they don't disturb the wildlife ? Screaming little children in nature parks are even worse than bird calls ! Go figure !

    Locations of rare birds or general birds appearance are usually shared among closed groups and never should be posted in public forums, where the eyes of poachers are always lurking.

    I would suggest to the TS and the owner of the blog to practice better information dissemination and to take into consideration invasion of privacy. Nobody gives you the right to take photos of photographers out there in the field and simply label them as bad behaving. You can approach us in nice way and have a good conversation. After all we as bird photographers are very nice people and we for sure, don't BITE !

    Over my many years of bird photography, i have come to conclude that through bird photography, bird photographers have become a good source of good images to help birders view images and see them offline (for learning and sharing).

    The 2 groups never fight at all, if you are well informed of certain blogs out here in Singapore, where birders and bird photographers gather.

    With the limited land space available for birding, why not create a more harmonized environment for all to share and to teach our future generations on what was previously available in Singapore 50 years down the road.

    Agree ?

    We can "strangle" at each other's throats till the cows come home or do you want to have the ability to say we used to have that beautiful bird some where before in Singapore ?

    Good night and may we get more bird images to share.

    Regards,
    Philip
    http://www.avianwatchasia.org for some real bird photos
    My website : http://www.gorgeousfeathers.com

  16. #36

    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    TS and owner of the blog, if you all want to make a point, make it in a mature way, and i'm not saying this from an old person point of view ( im 25 yrs old, considered young for bird photographers).

    What pissed me off and the rest here is how this issue is being made, in a very childish way, stomping photographers... we tackle the matter itself, not the person, that's how it should be done.

    I believe most people wont say so much if you had not taken those pics of the birders, just take a look at the mandai orchid garden thread in this forum, where the matter is focus on the actions of photographers, and not the person itself

    Go and look at overseas and how award winning photographer get their shot, they also need set ups like calls and whatever to try to lure the animals, why dont you go and stomp them too, and call them so-called nature lovers, and pls remember all your biology knowledge and stuff, how are they obtained? Dont tell me no interference and disturbance is made, animals had to die to get some info too...

    Sometimes things need to be sacrificed for the better good, and we are all nature lover, photographer or not, we should not be fighting among ourselves, instead we should stand at the same side and go to war against poachers and loggers...
    Last edited by dennisthetiger; 31st January 2012 at 12:02 AM.
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  17. #37

    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    Quote Originally Posted by Harlequin View Post
    Both birders and bird photographers share one common thing : Birds !

    Birders love to twitch so are bird photographers.

    Birders use binoculars and scopes to view images of birds out in the wild. But those images will only remain in each person's memory. You cannot share it with your children, grandchildren and future generations.

    Bird photographers ( a rare breed of photographers with specialized skills and equipment ) capture images of birds in the wild so that they can share the beautiful images of such beauties available to us before we as human invade too much into Mother Nature's turf. The images captured can be shared with many many generations and can serve as an educational tool too !


    Regards,
    Philip
    You Bird Photographers feeding the birds to entice them into the open and breaking branches to get a nice background and going down from boardwalk to prevent the bird from going into the bushes.

    Is that not YOU the bird photographer invading too much into Mother Nature's turf?

    If you call that taking pictures of birds in the wild, then you are just bluffing your family members and the public. Maybe you should check up the definition of WILD in the dictionary!!

    I think YOU this group of "Bird Photographers" are just unhappy with the TS for letting out the location of the BIRD.

    It is because of you this bunch of so called "Bird Photographers" fake actions and talk that made a newbie birder stop taking photos of the birders as I was ashamed to be associated with you this bunch of .....

  18. #38

    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    yes? Please carry on. I'm all ears.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    Quote Originally Posted by eng60232 View Post
    You Bird Photographers feeding the birds to entice them into the open and breaking branches to get a nice background and going down from boardwalk to prevent the bird from going into the bushes.

    Is that not YOU the bird photographer invading too much into Mother Nature's turf?

    If you call that taking pictures of birds in the wild, then you are just bluffing your family members and the public. Maybe you should check up the definition of WILD in the dictionary!!

    I think YOU this group of "Bird Photographers" are just unhappy with the TS for letting out the location of the BIRD.

    It is because of you this bunch of so called "Bird Photographers" fake actions and talk that made a newbie birder stop taking photos of the birders as I was ashamed to be associated with you this bunch of .....
    Looks like harsh language is your cup of tea !

    Please go ahead since you're ashamed to be associated with bird photographers. Your words have already made a lot of people unhappy.

    And please do not sow discords among the small community here.

    From now on, please avoid us Bird photographers from as far as you can be , since you can stand the "smell" of us ! Don't stick around this sort of forums (in fact you shouldn't have been in here in the first place) because the posts of birds photographs (from the wild or from bird parks) will bring discomfort to your eyes and maybe causes convulsions to your brain cells.

    Life is short mate, don't be another one of those ******* who will only bring discomforts to this peaceful world.
    http://www.avianwatchasia.org for some real bird photos
    My website : http://www.gorgeousfeathers.com

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

    Oh by the way eng60232 , looks like you are also trying to buy a 500mm ? Shooting spiders and butterflies with this sort of focal length ?

    Since you are already distancing yourself from bird photography, don't' waste money !
    http://www.avianwatchasia.org for some real bird photos
    My website : http://www.gorgeousfeathers.com

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