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Thread: The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

  1. #1

    Default The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

    I've been following the postings by a certain user under the "Portraits and Poses" section...His posts reminded me of the story "The Frog In the Well"

    "Little frog, his ability is big
    Living in the well he's afraid of nothing
    He knows how to catch bugs; he knows how to talk
    In the world inside the well, he is the most powerful
    Through the mouth of the well he has seen the clouds and the birds
    He has seen the well's fish and shrimp
    He thinks nobody can compare to him
    But he is very worried
    That he will grow too big for the well
    "




    The knowledge one possesses is little and one should be receptive to others point of view...no matter good or bad

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

    when one cannot see the concept and ideals behind something, he, too, becomes another frog in the well.

    just because you do not see eye to eye with his ideas doesn't make him a frog in the well.

    but once you do not see what he tries to convey, then your world has become a small, small place

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

    Quote Originally Posted by kei1309 View Post
    when one cannot see the concept and ideals behind something, he, too, becomes another frog in the well.

    just because you do not see eye to eye with his ideas doesn't make him a frog in the well.

    but once you do not see what he tries to convey, then your world has become a small, small place
    If one cannot see the concept and ideals behind something, it might be due to the presentation of the idea...this does not make him another frog in the well.
    Err...the moral of the "Frog in the well" story is being receptive to others point of view...no matter good or bad. It's not about being able to see eye to eye with other people's ideas.

    This is a "self reflection" thread...to remind us to be open to other people's opinions even if you don't agree with it at first. If one keeps rejecting others opinions because one doesn't agrees with it...
    then one is the frog in the well.
    Cheers!!
    Last edited by icceman; 24th November 2011 at 01:40 AM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member digitalpimp's Avatar
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    I think I know this guy. My take is: he may be a very emotional person (pretty obvious in his work) and his only mistake is not being able to contain it. He may also be unfamiliar with ClubSNAP's infamous brand of critique that's why he fires up easily when met with. I notice he takes criticisms well if it was told nicely, although he can't really expect everything to go his way, of course.

    For what it's worth, he's an artist in my book.

    I'd like to impart a legendary quote from The Fast And The Furious: Tokyo Drift-- "A nail that sticks out gets hammered."
    Last edited by digitalpimp; 24th November 2011 at 03:54 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

    Donno who is it but later I will go and see see and guess.

    But anyway, noticed a lot of posers on Clubsnap logo louder than photo, logo big big picture so so.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

    Quote Originally Posted by icceman View Post
    I've been following the postings by a certain user under the "Portraits and Poses" section...His posts reminded me of the story "The Frog In the Well"

    "Little frog, his ability is big
    Living in the well he's afraid of nothing
    He knows how to catch bugs; he knows how to talk
    In the world inside the well, he is the most powerful
    Through the mouth of the well he has seen the clouds and the birds
    He has seen the well's fish and shrimp
    He thinks nobody can compare to him
    But he is very worried
    That he will grow too big for the well
    "




    The knowledge one possesses is little and one should be receptive to others point of view...no matter good or bad

    I don't even understand why everybody keeps pushing the blame to the receiver.

    A lot of times the critic is the one who is rude. Just plain bullies. Do our parents teach us to be polite to people first or

    to slam people first and then apologize to them (and DEMANDING them to accept your crazy bombardments), often giving excuses like

    Oh sorry I was in a daze, I was drunk, I was not myself, and even, sorry I am very direct/I am very straightforward or sorry my English helicopter (education) not good.

    All these are not acceptable in either social or working life protocols.

    Are you sure we must receive good and bad opinions totally? 100%? Can you really?

    The intake of opinions varies from people to people and also depends of the sensitivity of the issues and of course the personality of receiver. All of us have weak spots. We should repsect that.

    I have been here since 2006. Once I pm-ed a senior who had made very sarcastic remarks on my pictures. I said,

    "Hi bro. I saw that you have joined Colin's shoot this Saturday. You have given me wonderful feedback on my pictures.
    I would like to discuss with you more on improving my shoot and treat you for a coffee. See you!"

    Just as I expected, he didn't turn up. I thought he said he was very straightforward? If he was, then he would have turned up in my face personally and slammed my pics in person. All these people are just pitiful desktop warriors.

    So, this is why I say that these seniors satisfy themselves by knocking down people.

    If they don't know you, if you are a newbie, or if you are not in their league or gang, they will definitely slam your pics upside down. Only a handful are nice people.

    I ask you one simple question: have you seen Deadpoet criticizing Agetan's pics before and vice versa?

    Hence one needs to be selective of comments. Otherwise, we are no different from a 'gong dai'(silly idiot) without any principles and letting people walk us all over.

    I would urge you guys not to immerse in Internet life too often. Get out into the sunshine and join some shoots to know more friends. The only way to learn is to shoot more. And that's more healthy too.

    I don't think it is nice to start a thread like this to criticize people when they chose not to accept your opinion. Why must they accept your opinion? Who are you? Both of you don't even know each other. If you are his shifu then I have nothing to say.

    Furthermore, he has a choice to filter his likes and dislikes, just like you, just like everyone. Why should we force people to think like you? Can I force you to eat something you don't like? Can I force you to love someone you don't love?

    If the person doesn't like your opinion, so be it. We should just keep quiet and leave the thread. Anyway you have written down your opinion. So why should we be so hostile when someone doesn't take your views?

    A human will only be hostile when people are hostile towards him/her. So before you blame people for not accepting your views, check your lines first.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

    Quote Originally Posted by digitalpimp View Post
    I think I know this guy. My take is: he may be a very emotional person (pretty obvious in his work) and his only mistake is not being able to contain it. He may also be unfamiliar with ClubSNAP's infamous brand of critique that's why he fires up easily when met with. I notice he takes criticisms well if it was told nicely, although he can't really expect everything to go his way, of course.

    For what it's worth, he's an artist in my book.

    I'd like to impart a legendary quote from The Fast And The Furious: Tokyo Drift-- "A nail that sticks out gets hammered."
    well said

  8. #8
    Senior Member edutilos-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

    Quote Originally Posted by digitalpimp View Post
    I think I know this guy. My take is: he may be a very emotional person (pretty obvious in his work) and his only mistake is not being able to contain it. He may also be unfamiliar with ClubSNAP's infamous brand of critique that's why he fires up easily when met with. I notice he takes criticisms well if it was told nicely, although he can't really expect everything to go his way, of course.
    Artist, not-artist, it is just a name, and is not important.

    I tried my best to put forth what I really thought, it seems that when feedback becomes too detailed with no massaging of his ego to offer a bit of babysitting on the side, he could not take it in.

    Of course no one is happy when we are told that our works are not good. It would be ridiculous to think that someone will come dashing forward to embrace anyone else who provided criticism of a work you think is at the very least, decent. But asking for polite criticism, and responding to that condescendingly - dismissal of the feedback without a thought whatsoever and asking people to be educated... That reeks of arrogance.

  9. #9
    Deregistered allenleonhart's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

    Quote Originally Posted by edutilos- View Post
    Artist, not-artist, it is just a name, and is not important.

    I tried my best to put forth what I really thought, it seems that when feedback becomes too detailed with no massaging of his ego to offer a bit of babysitting on the side, he could not take it in.

    Of course no one is happy when we are told that our works are not good. It would be ridiculous to think that someone will come dashing forward to embrace anyone else who provided criticism of a work you think is at the very least, decent. But asking for polite criticism, and responding to that condescendingly - dismissal of the feedback without a thought whatsoever and asking people to be educated... That reeks of arrogance.
    It takes a different kind of courage to take in criticism and putting aside personal biases.

  10. #10
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    Its a matter of wording and the commentor being objective. I commented in one of his earlier works, several months back. If you read my post, one will see that I picked on virtually every aspect of the image. I have no portraiture pictures to show on clubsnap but he still took my comments in the spirit I meant them.

    He has experienced a poor reception of his images before so I can see his reaction, though I do not encourage his baiting too much. But it's not my place to advise him.

    One thing though, depth of criticism is still very young in clubsnap. If he reads this, I sincerely feel he will be happier exposing his art in overseas forums as well.

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

    Quote Originally Posted by LeCroy View Post
    A lot of times the critic is the one who is rude. Just plain bullies.
    I think I know who TS is refering too. If I'm right than for sure it's not the critics to be blamed. lol.

  12. #12
    Deregistered wootsk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

    Vege bird flew around and found another intersting thread to follow. Wonder what will be the progress.

  13. #13
    Senior Member edutilos-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

    Quote Originally Posted by allenleonhart View Post
    It takes a different kind of courage to take in criticism and putting aside personal biases.
    That is true, given that the critique makes sense, and that it is well-intentioned.

    I guess we all should try to move towards that sometimes. Also when giving criticism, though of course, it is nearly impossible to eliminate personal preferences.

  14. #14

    Default Re: The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

    I started this thread not to pin point anybody's fault.
    To be honest, I used to be a frog in the well too...till I jumped out of the well and into the sea.
    It hurts to be told that my works done in the well are sub-standard. But since I've chosen to be out of the well, my works are now being seen by others in the sea. I've to play by the "rules" of the sea and ensure that my ideas are conveyed to the masses. Photography is just a medium of communication (like drawing) which the artist used to convey his ideas/concepts. Anybody can be an artist...but a good artist is one that is able to communicate his ideas well to the masses. That means I must be open to opinions and critiques even if it's coated with bitter gourd, as the one giving the critique is also part of the masses in the sea. If I failed to do that, I might as well return to my well and let the fishes and shrimps there appreciate my works.

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

    Yes, good post!

    IMHO, it takes two hands to clap. I feel that asking for C&C in CS is like you never know what you are going to get.

    You might get great C&C from commenters who even considered the your emotional fragileness and word their sentences nicely, or you might just get people who plainly want to vent their frustrations in life upon your picture/creation/work. In the middle, you might just get very blunt C&C with commenters expressing plainly what they felt.

    The commenters are not the only ones to blame, for it takes two hands to clap.

    Many posters are posting not to get critics but in reality looking for praises and affirmation that they can shoot. Most of the time even if they receive good constructive critics, they also become defensive and impede their own learning. You see them replying like "you may not like but personally I like" kinda of defensive words or reasons. The behavior is very much like a child refusing to admit mistakes - except that people are simply posting the CC they asked in the first place - though in reality they are actually asking for praises.

    I especially avoid giving C&C to people posing pics of their children or their wife or their gf, they could be even way more emotionally vested to the subjects being important people in their life.

    We must understand that most people in CS are not real artists interested in advancing their art. But just people looking for praises and flattery.

    If you recognize a genuine student of the craft reception to constructive C&C, you should give your best effort to help him/her advance. And you could be surprised, that 'student' of the craft could be actually be a 'master' with way better works but just simply humble and hiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeCroy View Post
    I don't even understand why everybody keeps pushing the blame to the receiver.

    A lot of times the critic is the one who is rude. Just plain bullies. Do our parents teach us to be polite to people first or

    to slam people first and then apologize to them (and DEMANDING them to accept your crazy bombardments), often giving excuses like

    Oh sorry I was in a daze, I was drunk, I was not myself, and even, sorry I am very direct/I am very straightforward or sorry my English helicopter (education) not good.

    All these are not acceptable in either social or working life protocols.

    Are you sure we must receive good and bad opinions totally? 100%? Can you really?

    The intake of opinions varies from people to people and also depends of the sensitivity of the issues and of course the personality of receiver. All of us have weak spots. We should repsect that.

    I have been here since 2006. Once I pm-ed a senior who had made very sarcastic remarks on my pictures. I said,

    "Hi bro. I saw that you have joined Colin's shoot this Saturday. You have given me wonderful feedback on my pictures.
    I would like to discuss with you more on improving my shoot and treat you for a coffee. See you!"

    Just as I expected, he didn't turn up. I thought he said he was very straightforward? If he was, then he would have turned up in my face personally and slammed my pics in person. All these people are just pitiful desktop warriors.

    So, this is why I say that these seniors satisfy themselves by knocking down people.

    If they don't know you, if you are a newbie, or if you are not in their league or gang, they will definitely slam your pics upside down. Only a handful are nice people.

    I ask you one simple question: have you seen Deadpoet criticizing Agetan's pics before and vice versa?

    Hence one needs to be selective of comments. Otherwise, we are no different from a 'gong dai'(silly idiot) without any principles and letting people walk us all over.

    I would urge you guys not to immerse in Internet life too often. Get out into the sunshine and join some shoots to know more friends. The only way to learn is to shoot more. And that's more healthy too.

    I don't think it is nice to start a thread like this to criticize people when they chose not to accept your opinion. Why must they accept your opinion? Who are you? Both of you don't even know each other. If you are his shifu then I have nothing to say.

    Furthermore, he has a choice to filter his likes and dislikes, just like you, just like everyone. Why should we force people to think like you? Can I force you to eat something you don't like? Can I force you to love someone you don't love?

    If the person doesn't like your opinion, so be it. We should just keep quiet and leave the thread. Anyway you have written down your opinion. So why should we be so hostile when someone doesn't take your views?

    A human will only be hostile when people are hostile towards him/her. So before you blame people for not accepting your views, check your lines first.
    WTB Manfrotto RC4 L Bracket

  16. #16
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    The masses is not always right and to your advantage. You are not always right and am capable of poor judgement.

    But who are you shooting for? To make yourself happy or to communicate to the masses? What exactly are you trying to communicate and who is the masses? Its not about where you jump but how high you jump and if you continue to, if you want to speak in metaphors.

    I really do not see anything wrong with being a frog in a well. One just needs to make sure the well is his or her own and not someone else's. Nobody says the well must be narrow and dark, it can be wide and beautiful too.

    Just want to point out that there is nothing wrong in insisting on your path in photography, lest people are convinced conformity is the norm.

  17. #17
    Deregistered allenleonhart's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

    Quote Originally Posted by edutilos- View Post
    That is true, given that the critique makes sense, and that it is well-intentioned.

    I guess we all should try to move towards that sometimes. Also when giving criticism, though of course, it is nearly impossible to eliminate personal preferences.
    Art is subjective in nature what i meant by putting aside biases when receiving critique is to put yourself into the other party's viewpoint and take a peek first, then consider if its valid/ is of value. even if it isn't, drop a thank you, and just ignore it.

    because time is taken to write a full critique imo. its easy to spot people who sincerely critique really.

    either way, this is an internet forum. i'm shocked people actually expect so much out of it...
    Last edited by allenleonhart; 24th November 2011 at 05:19 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

    Quote Originally Posted by foxtwo View Post
    The masses is not always right and to your advantage. You are not always right and am capable of poor judgement.

    But who are you shooting for? To make yourself happy or to communicate to the masses? What exactly are you trying to communicate and who is the masses? Its not about where you jump but how high you jump and if you continue to, if you want to speak in metaphors.

    I really do not see anything wrong with being a frog in a well. One just needs to make sure the well is his or her own and not someone else's. Nobody says the well must be narrow and dark, it can be wide and beautiful too.

    Just want to point out that there is nothing wrong in insisting on your path in photography, lest people are convinced conformity is the norm.
    Thank you for contributing to this thread.
    Like what I said earlier, I'm not pin pointing anyone and who's right or wrong. I'm just stating what I saw in my "reflection" (The thread was titled "self-reflection" for a reason). Different people will interpret the story differently depending on what they see in their "reflection".
    Cheers!!

  19. #19
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

    Quote Originally Posted by icceman View Post
    Like what I said earlier, I'm not pin pointing anyone and who's right or wrong. I'm just stating what I saw in my "reflection" (The thread was titled "self-reflection" for a reason). Different people will interpret the story differently depending on what they see in their "reflection".
    I see my reflection as a happy frog in a small well.

  20. #20
    Deregistered allenleonhart's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Frog In the Well (Self Reflection)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    I see my reflection as a happy frog in a small well.
    i dun see a reflection am i a ghost?

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