Newbie starting out in freelancing

[HazeMaze]

If you are learning 101, you are paying for their time.

If you are assisting him/her with a project, they are paying you for your service.

[Fudgecakes]

If you are learning 101, you are paying for their time.

If you are assisting him/her with a project, they are paying you for your service.

I see.

[foxtwo]

On occasion there are members in services wanted who are just looking for a mule, not an assistant. I think it's just right for new people who can't effectively assist yet. Take the chance to open your eyes and take in experiences. Each photographer has their style of doing things, not just photography but down to their minute actions. Compare and take the best and most suited for your own.

I've never heard of people paying photographers for their time. I think most will be willing to chat for just kopi. Photography is practical. I can chat all day but you'll never know unless you do it. So the only way to learn is by hands on. Assistants must be paid an amount regardless, don't be cheated by "photographers" who don't.

[catchlights]

I actually meant is there anything I should do to protect myself if something goes wrong. Or must I register with any associatation or anything

the only sure way to protect yourself is deliver whatever you had promise. and not to make any promises that you can't keep.

[catchlights]

To start a company you need to register with ARCA to get your business registration no. With that you can setup a company bank account.

There is no need to get approval from any photographers association even if your photography is poor or excellent. If this happens to be what you're thinking.

register a business need to be above 18, IIRC, TS is sitting "O" this year.

[catchlights]

On occasion there are members in services wanted who are just looking for a mule, not an assistant. I think it's just right for new people who can't effectively assist yet. Take the chance to open your eyes and take in experiences. Each photographer has their style of doing things, not just photography but down to their minute actions. Compare and take the best and most suited for your own.

I've never heard of people paying photographers for their time. I think most will be willing to chat for just kopi. Photography is practical. I can chat all day but you'll never know unless you do it. So the only way to learn is by hands on. Assistants must be paid an amount regardless, don't be cheated by "photographers" who don't.

LOL..

[catchlights]

TS,

want make some money in photography? sure you can.

want to make some profit? not so simple.



just look at the Photography Service Directory, so many photographers inside.

is your work good? people charge cheaper then you.

you charge cheap also, got people cheaper than you.

you charge even cheaper, got people willing to shoot free.

be honest to yourself, is your shots decent enough? so what is your selling point? and more importantly, what is your goal?

[Agetan]

The economy determines the rates, now it's low so even though our costs increase or remain the same we can't be charging the same rate as before. Last time companies still willing to pay $200-250 per hr for events. And we can still pick and choose clients. Now forget it. Wait for economy to recover before we can all raise our rates.

Economy does to certain extend determines the rates, but it is not an absolute.

I believe in 2009, there are a lot of people who suffer due to the recession... but there are businesses who grow very rapidly. It really depends how you navigate your business in any economic condition. I increase my price about 70% during the recession, so there is a good logic why I do so. I will let u guys figure out why?

If TS want to start earning money... I would like to ask if TS understand what is the "vision"?

No offense guys and I know you guys try to be helpful... Many will readily give you steps that involve in creating a business... yes, that is probably the easiest... but make the business works is another thing.

How to create a demand out of your work is very crucial to any business venture...

I was recently in a negotiation regarding to a commercial shoot, of course, I will be reluctant when things are not done the way I want it... but to my surprise, because my expertise in children photography, the other party is willing to go with my terms and allow me to do what I want within an agreeable guideline. I didn't have to discount 1 cent to get the business.

The reason I was hired is very simple... I do have the "Vision" about my work and they buy my vision. It is not about the price, I know I still come in more above their budget, but price isn't always the deciding factor. So I always questions about people's vision.

Many start selling their service without have any clue what they want to say with their work.

If the whole idea about getting paid to do photography... you might as well go and work for others... no risk and get paid regardless and why you have to do photography? This is not a question to steer you away from photography, but an honest question to get you think about your intention.

I am always encourage people to start photography as a career but I always cautious about giving them a straight answer... because it doesn't help them at all. We always ask people to charge above their "cost" to make good enough profit to live your dream, have a family and supported doing what you are doing.

There are enough cover in the past 6-9 months on biz thread, one really just need to read, understand, digest and apply relevant materials to understand the concept.

Here are 2 things you need to understand to be successful
1. Your Vision in photography (and why you think your Vision is a good selling point)
2. Understand your numbers (many don't understand that.... they may make money, but make no profit)

The rest you can learn as you go... and you never stop learning actually...

Come to one of my free business talk and ask questions... that is a good start...

Regards,

Hart

[Marcusluvsgreen]

we should band together and form a 2 man photog team

[Fudgecakes]

we should band together and form a 2 man photog team

Oooo. Talking to me? Haha. I wan :P but I won't be free till after my Os

[Fudgecakes]

Economy does to certain extend determines the rates, but it is not an absolute.

I believe in 2009, there are a lot of people who suffer due to the recession... but there are businesses who grow very rapidly. It really depends how you navigate your business in any economic condition. I increase my price about 70% during the recession, so there is a good logic why I do so. I will let u guys figure out why?

If TS want to start earning money... I would like to ask if TS understand what is the "vision"?

No offense guys and I know you guys try to be helpful... Many will readily give you steps that involve in creating a business... yes, that is probably the easiest... but make the business works is another thing.

How to create a demand out of your work is very crucial to any business venture...

I was recently in a negotiation regarding to a commercial shoot, of course, I will be reluctant when things are not done the way I want it... but to my surprise, because my expertise in children photography, the other party is willing to go with my terms and allow me to do what I want within an agreeable guideline. I didn't have to discount 1 cent to get the business.

The reason I was hired is very simple... I do have the "Vision" about my work and they buy my vision. It is not about the price, I know I still come in more above their budget, but price isn't always the deciding factor. So I always questions about people's vision.

Many start selling their service without have any clue what they want to say with their work.

If the whole idea about getting paid to do photography... you might as well go and work for others... no risk and get paid regardless and why you have to do photography? This is not a question to steer you away from photography, but an honest question to get you think about your intention.

I am always encourage people to start photography as a career but I always cautious about giving them a straight answer... because it doesn't help them at all. We always ask people to charge above their "cost" to make good enough profit to live your dream, have a family and supported doing what you are doing.

There are enough cover in the past 6-9 months on biz thread, one really just need to read, understand, digest and apply relevant materials to understand the concept.

Here are 2 things you need to understand to be successful
1. Your Vision in photography (and why you think your Vision is a good selling point)
2. Understand your numbers (many don't understand that.... they may make money, but make no profit)

The rest you can learn as you go... and you never stop learning actually...

Come to one of my free business talk and ask questions... that is a good start...

Regards,

Hart

This really gives me something to think about. Thanks alot Hart. Really. If time permits i'll definitely go for one of your talks.

[sjackal]

I was recently in a negotiation regarding to a commercial shoot, of course, I will be reluctant when things are not done the way I want it... but to my surprise, because my expertise in children photography, the other party is willing to go with my terms and allow me to do what I want within an agreeable guideline. I didn't have to discount 1 cent to get the business.

If the whole idea about getting paid to do photography... you might as well go and work for others... no risk and get paid regardless and why you have to do photography? This is not a question to steer you away from photography, but an honest question to get you think about your intention.

I am always encourage people to start photography as a career but I always cautious about giving them a straight answer... because it doesn't help them at all. We always ask people to charge above their "cost" to make good enough profit to live your dream, have a family and supported doing what you are doing.

There are enough cover in the past 6-9 months on biz thread, one really just need to read, understand, digest and apply relevant materials to understand the concept.

Nice post Hart.

[Agetan]

Further along to the topic,

What I do with my photographers who work under Bambini Photography is to show them the way step by step in growing them to a full fledged business operator with great products (photography)... It will take a while to achieve that but they understand business in Photography is more about the business rather than the photography and why things are done in a certain way. I can't be more transparent with them with everything I do, there is no secret.

Many clouded by having an absolute thinking that photography is everything. To me, Photography is nothing just a mere "product" but people don't buy a product that is good without the identity. That is the reason why people spend on luxuries item. It is always great as a product, but it also associate the identity of the products to the brand image.

In business, I spend 95% of my time building my brand image through series of plans that I put in place. It is difficult to measure, but you can feel the different once the plan is working. One thing for sure is, it takes years to get to the point I want it... ROME wasn't build in a day... or a year for a matter of fact.

Most good photography business will take a good 2-5 years to get to a stable condition, and the time generally start when you understand your vision. Many will take years to find those vision... and a lot of them quit before they even found it and let alone running a profitable business, that is why the success rate is so low and why people think make a living out of photography is almost impossible.

I hope it helps...

By the way, for those of you who is interested with Children Photography, I am running 2 courses for Sony Singapore and you are more than welcome to sign up (I am sure it is not full yet)

Regards,

Hart

[Marcusluvsgreen]

Oooo. Talking to me? Haha. I wan :P but I won't be free till after my Os

Me too

[foxtwo]

Economy does to certain extend determines the rates, but it is not an absolute.

I believe in 2009, there are a lot of people who suffer due to the recession... but there are businesses who grow very rapidly. It really depends how you navigate your business in any economic condition. I increase my price about 70% during the recession, so there is a good logic why I do so. I will let u guys figure out why?

Well, that is true, though that can be possible because you have a niche market and even increasing your rates you're able to get business.

As for the TS's targeted genre, Events & Portraiture. I really don't think a newly freelancer will be able to charge highly and still get paid for it, regardless of skill. I don't deny that some event photographers are still able to maintain their rates due to client's loyalty, but that's not the norm in today's market. Let me refer to my own situation, in terms of years of experience, skill & equipment I am still a newbie in the world of commercial photography. My primary interest is in architecture & interiors, and I think I do okay in photographing it. I don't price myself lowly because I know my minimum worth. At least $100++ per angle, and I learnt from one of my clients that the higher priced architectural & interior photographers are not charging much higher than me at $200++ per angle. So price is only $100+- difference, but the wealth of experience, skill, equipment & reputation is immense. So my clients are giving me a chance, while also saving some money at the short expense of quality. I am very grateful, lol. When the high tier photographers are finding life hard and aren't really pushing the market, what can mid to low tier do in terms of pricing competitively.

Now returning to Events and Portraiture, (heck even I shoot events to sustain my primary genre) so how many photographers are currently and how many photographers in the future are/will be pricing themselves in event photography? If you get direct clients, are willing to pay your $100++ phr rates AND return to you, then great news. But if you're shooting for event companies or through a middle man then the rates you're paid is crap, under $50+- phr. Of course the latter situation, you're always get work, where it's tougher to get returning direct clients. That's a trade-off.

I usually overlook the advice of needing to find a great product to sell, primarily because of my genre. Commercial photography is really about knowing how to shoot anything and everything. I may concentrate on interiors but it's not like I'd turn down everything else. If your interest is not in any niche market like kids, pets, weddings, etc then that's why I'll rather encourage one to be an assistant than to limit yourself in events. Photographers are a dime a dozen, valuable assistants are the rare commodity.

[Agetan]

As I mentioned, it is about long term business building rather than just the next 6 months.

If you haven't got enough jobs for genre that you do, perhaps it is time to assess why? and change your marketing plan around it? Have you look through a copy of LookBox? all these ID people are your potential clients, how many have you approach? Sure, you might have to lower your price to get this ID. But you will build a client base. From there, you can create your brand awareness and move along to create a brand image that is associate with high end interior photography

Although I consider myself quite establish on things that I do (remember there are tonnes of people who are offering children and family photography at a very affordable (read: cheaper) price)... I will never stop looking for every avenue to push myself deeper in the market.

I was at one of the play that my son attend, I saw at least 2 former clients... but there were about 150+ families which I have not shoot... now, my question is, how do I get to these people? what is my plan? I don't look at just the 2 and think, wow, I saw clients even here, I must be doing well?

It is not about your current condition, but it is about what you do NOW and what seeds have you plan for your future growth?

Now, if you have done it right, you should start seeing the results... if not, try different approach....

Regards,

Hart
ps. U have great portfolio, but do think about market acceptance on the images that you produce. Also, think about your "About us" from client's perspective. just my tips...

[foxtwo]

Hi Hart,

Thanks for the advice. I do look at interior magazines for client contacts. I even walk around private estates looking for soon-to complete properties. For the moment I've been concentrating on passing out my portfolio to architecture firms and interior agencies to build my portfolio with more as you say, market acceptance (toned downed) images. With that hopefully I can try again for magazine editorials, don't pay much but great tool for promoting. And I'll re-think my "about us" as well. Lol.

Again, thanks for your time.

[Agetan]

Hi Hart,

Thanks for the advice. I do look at interior magazines for client contacts. I even walk around private estates looking for soon-to complete properties. For the moment I've been concentrating on passing out my portfolio to architecture firms and interior agencies to build my portfolio with more as you say, market acceptance (toned downed) images. With that hopefully I can try again for magazine editorials, don't pay much but great tool for promoting. And I'll re-think my "about us" as well. Lol.

Again, thanks for your time.

No probs... just my opinion anyway...

Good luck with your business.

Regards,

Hart

[daredevil123]

if u diy, it costs $315.. compared to $15? for sole proprietor.. but PLC is troublesome.. need to file Annual Return.. tax .. and the "wonderful" ACRA site didn't make it better (although they did improve after i send complaint email to them, but they still didn't see it from user point of view... anyway, better not OT)

DOn't forget, need a director's resolution for almost every damn thing...

[Shizuma]

Im not a lawyer but you might wish to register a limited liability partnership to save on the corporate complexity.

Free software, use Gimp and linux. Virus free and free